Hell no!
D&D General Is there a D&D setting that actually works how it would with access to D&D magic?
- Thread starter FoxWander
- Start date
Scruffy nerf herder
Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
Lol why world build in such a way that you can't present more and different interesting villains for them to contend with?
Vaalingrade
Legend
Bounded Accuracy makes sure no one is special or present an insurmountable threat unless they're a monster with esoteric defenses. Otherwise enough chumps can zerg down Sauron himself.
That's not technically true. With enemy DC scaling for special abilities and spells, higher level opponents can have powers that some people simply can't save against. I remember the first time I saw this in action during Storm King's Thunder- we had to fight a dragon with a DC 19 fear aura, and one poor sap who had a 9 Wisdom could only save on a natural 20. And then I realized DC's totally can get to 20 or 21...to the point that lacking proficiency or an immunity (thank you, Heroes' Feast!), there are characters who even a natural 20 cannot save.
Voadam
Legend
It looks like these numbers are from Forgotten Realms Adventures though I can't seem to find the Fighter 2/Wizard 22 in Shadowdale. Is that correct?
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Those are the stats for Sylune Silverhand. And yes, my source is Forgotten Realms Adventures.
Flamestrike
Legend
Another city not in either Faerun or Greyhawk (but nonetheless a small city where several people can teleport, provide instantaneous communication, create objects from nothing, predict the future, maintain crops 24/7 365 days per year, create AI, employ undead labor 24/7, regenerate limbs, cure all diseases and raise the dead).
How about a city in an actual campaign world (which is what we're talking about here) Lets start with Berdusk? It's a small city in Faerun, with a population of 20,000.
Notable inhabitants include:
Darthlene (an Archlich Wizard 19)
Uluene Maertalar (High priestess of Milil, Cleric 16)
Cylria Dragonborn (Bard 10/ Harper 4/ Fighter 3) with a ring of three wishes
Joelle Emmeline (Heartwarder of Sune, a Paragon path/ 3E Prestige class)
Tathlosar Brimmerbold (an 18th level Fighter)
Obslin Minstrelwish and Belhuar Thantarth (both Bard 9)
Bransuldyn Mirrortor (Gnome Cleric of Oghma 9)
Sheenra Duuth (14th level Rogue)
Shambarin (Wizard 14/ Rogue 7)
Bran Skorlsun (Ranger 17)
Eather Heilean (Paladin 7/ Harper paragon 10)
Do you want me to provide a list of what a 19th level Wizard (and a 14th level Wizard), 16th level Cleric (and a 9th level Cleric), 14th level Bard (and 2 x 9th level Bards) and an (effective) 17th level Paladin can do?
And they're just the named NPCs. There would be dozens more Bards in the bard college there, several Wizards and Sorcerers, multiple lower level Clerics to Oghma and Milil (the main deities) and Torm/ Helm (who also have a presence), plus a handfull of Paladins and Rangers also capable of casting spells.
When we get to a population of 40,000 (twice this size) in Faerun we're in Baldurs Gate territory and that joint has several Archmages (or the equivalent) and high priests in the low to high teens level range for several churches.
Flamestrike
Legend
Elminster.
No, Elminster is the Wizard 26. This predates the Elminster novels where he decided to dabble in every known class, get a special "Chosen of Mystra" template, and wield silver fire- but definitely after Ed claimed he has psionic abilities. : )
Also in a few years, his level would rise to something like 29 anyways, as only the Simbul was a better magician at Wizard 30...as far as I can recall.
Also in a few years, his level would rise to something like 29 anyways, as only the Simbul was a better magician at Wizard 30...as far as I can recall.
Flamestrike
Legend
Good thing he's dead, because he was a 16th level Cleric, along with his good friend Roond Asmyrk who was also a 16th level Cleric (of Sune) and who owns a local tavern in Welhoon (and is still alive AFAICT).
There is also:
Elarue Estpirit (7th level Ranger)
Deinyn Fembrys (5th level Cleric of Shar)
Naedaenya Arthas (6th level Cleric of Shar)
Shan Thar (Cleric 3, Cyric)
Albhaera Haerldoun (Wizard 6)
Orlenstar Thirlthorn (Druid 4)
Kevrin (Sorcerer 1)
Landon Bhentyl (Wizard 2)
Nym Nindar (Bard 1)
Zendoras Ralagar (Fighter 2/ Wizard 1)
Inhabitants of Wheloon
Most named Welhoonians there are low to mid level Fighters, and the town appears to have little in the way of Arcane casters. It seems a bit of an outlier.
Flamestrike
Legend
As Ed's self insert, I hear he now dual wields Katanas.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I am not sure what in my post prevents interesting villains.
(Warning, I have a tendency to get long-winded):
I hope by now it seems evident that the game has always presented two different realities to the player base. The rulebooks seem to indicate a "typical magic" setting where the heroes stand out for being adventurers with abilities beyond those of mere mortals. Magic items are uncommon, and NPC casters (while they do need to exist) are relegated to major cities and are not terribly inclined to help you without persuasion.
The adventures and settings, however, present a world where the players are not out of the ordinary. Adventurers are a known quantity, and NPC's with class levels, as well as spellcasters, appear with relative commonality. Magical items are strewn about as needed (I mean, even Keep on the Borderlands had low level NPC's armed with weapons and armor +1 fairly liberally). I surmise this was an attempt on the part of content creators to prevent the PC's from becoming lords of the setting, able to impose their will upon the populace willy-nilly (and by the 2e era, at least, I at least noticed some disdain for "0-level NPC's", especially once Non-Weapon Proficiencies established themselves as the standard (despite being labeled as optional in the PHB).
After all, it's hard to have a master weaponsmith with multiple proficiency slots devoted to his craft without answering "hey where did he get all of those proficiency slots anyways?".
We like to say that "magic marts" don't exist, but you can find so many examples of them that I'm fairly sure I saw a product devoted to one and explaining how the wizard avoids being robbed and swindled.
This of course, creates a disconnect among the player base, where they can cite examples and facts at each other that are wholly contradictory. Gary would say that nobody has an expectation to find "rare" magic items, which are so uncommon that they will never be found for sale, then writes an adventure so chock full of +1 long swords and potions of healing that the players start thinking about going into business selling the darned things!
(I know his intent was for the party to arm their hirelings and henchmen, but even though "name-level" characters still could attract followers in 2e, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I saw someone who wanted to do so in the first place. The players had decided base building, wars, and politics were way less fun than running around in labyrinths gathering loot.)
And yes, an unfortunate circumstance of this is that the world sure feels a whole lot more magical than is claimed, thus begging the question of "hey, if the mayor is a 7th level Fighter with 18/59 Strength and +2 full plate, why is he paying us to go deal with some bandits?".
Let alone the question of how a 20+ level character can't make a party of simulacrum adventurers to solve just about any problem that comes up!
I hope by now it seems evident that the game has always presented two different realities to the player base. The rulebooks seem to indicate a "typical magic" setting where the heroes stand out for being adventurers with abilities beyond those of mere mortals. Magic items are uncommon, and NPC casters (while they do need to exist) are relegated to major cities and are not terribly inclined to help you without persuasion.
The adventures and settings, however, present a world where the players are not out of the ordinary. Adventurers are a known quantity, and NPC's with class levels, as well as spellcasters, appear with relative commonality. Magical items are strewn about as needed (I mean, even Keep on the Borderlands had low level NPC's armed with weapons and armor +1 fairly liberally). I surmise this was an attempt on the part of content creators to prevent the PC's from becoming lords of the setting, able to impose their will upon the populace willy-nilly (and by the 2e era, at least, I at least noticed some disdain for "0-level NPC's", especially once Non-Weapon Proficiencies established themselves as the standard (despite being labeled as optional in the PHB).
After all, it's hard to have a master weaponsmith with multiple proficiency slots devoted to his craft without answering "hey where did he get all of those proficiency slots anyways?".
We like to say that "magic marts" don't exist, but you can find so many examples of them that I'm fairly sure I saw a product devoted to one and explaining how the wizard avoids being robbed and swindled.
This of course, creates a disconnect among the player base, where they can cite examples and facts at each other that are wholly contradictory. Gary would say that nobody has an expectation to find "rare" magic items, which are so uncommon that they will never be found for sale, then writes an adventure so chock full of +1 long swords and potions of healing that the players start thinking about going into business selling the darned things!
(I know his intent was for the party to arm their hirelings and henchmen, but even though "name-level" characters still could attract followers in 2e, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I saw someone who wanted to do so in the first place. The players had decided base building, wars, and politics were way less fun than running around in labyrinths gathering loot.)
And yes, an unfortunate circumstance of this is that the world sure feels a whole lot more magical than is claimed, thus begging the question of "hey, if the mayor is a 7th level Fighter with 18/59 Strength and +2 full plate, why is he paying us to go deal with some bandits?".
Let alone the question of how a 20+ level character can't make a party of simulacrum adventurers to solve just about any problem that comes up!
Scruffy nerf herder
Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
If this is your long winded kind of comment then keep it up, man. Full of interesting points.
You know when I read all of that I couldn't help but think about why D&D has this charm that you don't always find. D&D is a REALLY good product, but it's never been a polished product.
And I mean that in a good way. There's an acceptable degree of being eclectic and weird, and sometimes a little silly ("magic items are rare" aside from all the times they're totally not), and in a funny microcosm kind of sense that's similar to how it is playing pretty much any rpg over the table.
It's still my favorite TTRPG, and I've played a lot. It has warts and people who play it argue all the damn time, but it all comes from a place of love (even if sometimes misguided).
Voadam
Legend
Here is where I asked where you got these numbers. Someone else pointed out Shining South in 3e for Halruaa numbers, but I was looking and have not found anything in Thay specifically or FR in general or D&D in general (which is the thread topic).
Your response was:
Fine so I grabbed the first published module PDF I could look up. H1 was an official module with a settlement.
So not "every published module." Fine.
Red Hand of Doom is not in an official setting but it is a 3.5 official D&D published module.
Fine so another shift. Not 3e modules but just FR ones. Which led to Wheloon in Cormyr Tearing of the Weave.
So the wiki looks like it tries to log everyone who has ever been an inhabitant of Wheloon. This is as one might expect, but FR covers a lot of time with different changes over time.
Going deeper, the 16th level cleric Roond Asmyrk is listed as having been a tavern owner there in two 2e products. The implication of him not being listed in the important Wheloon NPCs in the later 3.5 product is that he is not there later in the advanced 3.5 timeline. In any case he is not in the published module. He could be alive 100 years later in the 5e setting, but as a human and with the intervening spellplague I would not assume so.
Populations and prevalence of casters and their power level varies over time and area in the Forgotten Realms and from product to product.
For instance also from your list of Wheloon NPCs, Albhaera Haerldoun is listed in some products as a fighter, and in some products as a wizard.
Notes
There is another discrepancy in that Waterdeep describes and stats Albhaera as a fighter, while Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave stats her as a wizard, perhaps in error.
I'm not sure how I think about 1/100 for spellcasters in the Realms, but 1/100 people with levels above 1st seems legit, especially with what they say about Cormyr's armed forces. Magic items, of course, are super prevalent in that setting (but as I pointed out, that's not as abnormal in most settings as the game claims it is...)
Stefano Rinaldelli
Hero
Very clever. Magic is not technology as science is not magic. Completely different ways of reasoning.
overgeeked
B/X Known World
If it wasn't mentioned already: Nentir Vale. It was designed from the ground up to reflect the system is was designed for.
I don't think Nentir Vale is a good example because it's a pretty generic setting that could work with any fantasy game. The only things it really takes into account is the existence of Dragonborn and Tieflings along with the other PHB races at the time. It might take ritual use into account, but it's not like it has NPC's that are specifically members of a character class (since NPC's in 4e are designed completely differently than PC's).
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