D&D General Is there a D&D setting that actually works how it would with access to D&D magic?

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I think the point is that very few people, across the world, actually spurred on that innovation. And we still had large swaths of land/people where it didn't reach until very recently.
I am not sure if that is true. I think we are blinded by the sheer level of innovation over the last 300 years and the fruits of the scientific revolution.
I think the earliest phases of the industrial revolution were a lot of craftsman innovation, relatively uninformed by the scientific revolution that was gathering pace alongside.
Then it kicks into high gear in the mid nineteenth century as scientific discoveries begin for inform industrial innovation and the process becomes a matter of deliberate engineering R&D than some clever clogs in a foundry spotting something.

Now after a multitude waves of innovation later and more to come it can be very hard to imagine how pre scientific/engineering innovation really happened.
 

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Jer

Legend
Supporter
I think you’d have fruit and grain based fuel before that point. In a D&D world the trees can be alive, and when they’re not they’re some gnome’s house or part of a Dryad, etc.
Turning plants into fuel on any kind of massive scale would probably end up causing yet another apocalypse as the treants and woodland fey rip the civilization that starts doing it to shreds. If nature can fight back in an organized way things would get ugly.

I love this whole thread - it's giving me so many ideas for the next post-apocalyptic points of light type setting to create. A world where the previous Empire reached the level where they were stripping forests for fuel and were destroyed by the Druid Hierophant and his Wild Army is not actually an apocalypse I would have thought of without this thread. Usually that's the niche of wizards and gods...
 

Oofta

Legend
You are inventing capabilities for wizards that are neither stated nor implied in the D&D rules. Nothing says wizards can't do this... but nothing says they can, either.
Why do people assume that every possible spell and ritual, all forms of magic are detailed in the PHB? How many mods surround some arcane ritual to [insert bad/naughty thing here] that is not in any of the books? Where's the spell for unleashing a dragon apocalypse like in the Rise of Tiamat?

It's only limited by the imagination of the author. The PHB is specifically magic that will be useful to adventurers, there's no reason for the authors to go into detail about anything else. What magic is available out of specific spells should be left up to the campaign.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think the point is that very few people, across the world, actually spurred on that innovation. And we still had large swaths of land/people where it didn't reach until very recently.
I don’t think that was their point, but they aren’t in the thread anymore so I won’t worry about that too much.

But advancement has always been much more broad and decentralized than popular history tends to give it credit for, anyway.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Turning plants into fuel on any kind of massive scale would probably end up causing yet another apocalypse as the treants and woodland fey rip the civilization that starts doing it to shreds. If nature can fight back in an organized way things would get ugly.
Or, none of that would happen, because mass deforestation isn’t a necessity.

I mean sure, you can go that way, but it’s not at all a foregone conclusion.
 

Bupp

Adventurer
I feel this should have been a + thread. The OP basically was asking what a world would look like if the implied magical levels of the core books were applied to the whole world.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion is about how this would not work, instead of speculating along side the OP.

I'm guessing what you are looking for is the same thoughts that would go into a "what will the world look like in 2090?" article. Or looking back to the ones written in 1950 about what the 2000's would look like. Where are my flying cars!?!

My own homebrew World of Eska has a good amount of "magi-tech". One is the addressing food shortage. After a 2,000 year war between the elves, the landscape is mostly a blasted ruin. Large scale agriculture is extremely difficult, instead most towns rely on a "gruel machine".

A gruel machine looks like a large soft serve ice cream machine, and dispenses an unlimited amount of highly nutritious, though completely flavorless, textureless, bland paste. So we've solved hunger. Though no one likes it at all.

The gruel machine is powered by a "powerstone". Powerstones were brought to to Eska by ancient Thran planeswalkers, from Magic's Dominaria. The powerstone provides enough magical energy to provide wireless power to most homes in a small town. Lights, heating/cooling, cooking (if lucky enough to get "real" food), and other minor magical effects.

The elven empire has outfitted it's armies, hobgoblin legions, with "shocklances". Basically a spear that has the effects of shocking grasp. Cantrip level magic items are common place, and often in the hands of common people.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So, here’s some of why premodern farming and advancement assumptions don’t work in this discussion, if we go by the core books assumption that every other thorp and hamlet has someone who can cast 1st level spells or cantrips or something, and even up to 3rd level spells aren’t that uncommon.

Food and drink are easy to store, and keep fresh, and recover when it does go bad.
Irrigation is easier.
Creating fire is easy and requires less fuel.
People are cleaner and clerics and Druids and such have a better understanding of disease.
Druids have an easy and obvious incentive to help farmers grow more efficiently and sustainably.
Common magic items.
Fast communication is easier.
On top of that, if a medieval society did develop such mass agriculture capabilities, they would almost certainly be used to feed people before making fuel. If those advances happened very quickly, as in the real world over the last 200 years, there might be enough excess to use it as an energy source... but if they happened gradually, population growth would literally eat up all the benefits.

Malthus gets a bad rap nowadays, but his fundamental reasoning held true for almost all of recorded history. What he didn't foresee was the explosive growth of technology in the last two centuries which let our capacity to feed people outstrip people's capacity to have babies. If the same technologies had been developed over 1000 years instead of 200, we'd still be in the Malthusian trap today.

(And as a side note, that real-world agriculture technology is overwhelmingly dependent on fossil fuels, too--not just as an energy source for the machines, but as fertilizer. Modern farming is in large part a system for converting petroleum into people.)
Just a bit of an aside. Food surplus isn't a modern invention. Malthus gets a deserved bad rap, because his reasoning never really held up in any sort of general way, and his understanding of people was cynical to the point of being anti-social.

The idea that any increased production of food would just be eaten up by population growth only works with some very specific, dubious, assumptions. First, that the increase in production wouldn't come alongside an increase in quality of life and of life expectancy, which tends to slow population growth. Second, that there is no limit to how much people will just make more babies. Third, that there would not also be an increase in the technology of keeping food.

Change those assumptions, and the entire picture changes. Using the magical assumptions of the 5e core books, the above assumptions don't really work.

The other thing people tend to ignore in this discussion is that we aren't talking about a world that developed like Earth did up until some classical history date, and then magic started changing things. We are talking about a world where we evolved alongside magical creatures, and our first tools may have included rudimentary magics.
 

dave2008

Legend
I don’t think that was their point, but they aren’t in the thread anymore so I won’t worry about that too much.

But advancement has always been much more broad and decentralized than popular history tends to give it credit for, anyway.
It has also been sporadic and spurred by cross pollenation.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I feel this should have been a + thread. The OP basically was asking what a world would look like if the implied magical levels of the core books were applied to the whole world.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion is about how this would not work, instead of speculating along side the OP.
I think that you are wrong about the responses. The problem as I see it, that the rules really can be interpreted to allow for what ever world you want. Further assumptions are needed to narrow the world building effects. Including some fairly fundamental assumptions about the way the world works. Upon which there is not agreement at the player/DM community level.

There are those, for instance, where magic is an additive layer on top of regular cosmology/physics, alternatively magic could the structural foundation of everything. Every substance and material has a magical property and magic items/spell use that aspect of the material.

Someone mentioned the Tippyverse up thread and since then I have been thing up various ways to defeat the final outcome world building.
I think that permanent teleportation circles are fairly easily defendable but that is making some assumption not founded in the rules. Because the rules do not make any specification about the surface the spell is cast on to make it permanent.

Can it be cast on a bedsheet for instance?

I'm guessing what you are looking for is the same thoughts that would go into a "what will the world look like in 2090?" article. Or looking back to the ones written in 1950 about what the 2000's would look like. Where are my flying cars!?!

My own homebrew World of Eska has a good amount of "magi-tech". One is the addressing food shortage. After a 2,000 year war between the elves, the landscape is mostly a blasted ruin. Large scale agriculture is extremely difficult, instead most towns rely on a "gruel machine".

A gruel machine looks like a large soft serve ice cream machine, and dispenses an unlimited amount of highly nutritious, though completely flavorless, textureless, bland paste. So we've solved hunger. Though no one likes it at all.

The gruel machine is powered by a "powerstone". Powerstones were brought to to Eska by ancient Thran planeswalkers, from Magic's Dominaria. The powerstone provides enough magical energy to provide wireless power to most homes in a small town. Lights, heating/cooling, cooking (if lucky enough to get "real" food), and other minor magical effects.

The elven empire has outfitted it's armies, hobgoblin legions, with "shocklances". Basically a spear that has the effects of shocking grasp. Cantrip level magic items are common place, and often in the hands of common people.
Interesting ideas but why do you need powerstones?
 


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