Is there a framework for pnp RPGs that allows you to compare the game mechanics between different editions of a game?

[Cergorach]

The problem:
In a nutshell, I'm 'old' (49), and have been into pnp RPGs for 35+ years. Some of the games are as old or older as I have been playing them. At a certain point all the different editions start to melt together into a hodgepodge of rules. D&D is a good example, in D&D 5e 2014 we quite often used (unintentionally) the rules of D&D 3.5e, now in D&D 5e 2024 we still keep falling back to 2014 stuff (unintentionally). With the Games Workshop miniature games it was even worse, 10 editions of 40k, 8 editions of WFB, a couple of incarnations of Necromunda, Horus Heresy, Killteam, Warcry, etc. At a certain point I was wondering during a game, was an additional hand weapon an additional attack or something else...

Another issue is that some editions of games I haven't actually played, for example: I played 1e/2e/3e of Shadowrun, but not 4e/5e/6e or Anarchy (and soon Anarchy 2,0), I've read some stuff, but some of that has been many, many years ago. And the last time I played SR has been a couple of decades ago... Or I haven't played something yet, but there are many different versions, some I have had and read for a decade+, others I have read barely (example: Dark Heresy, with all it's variants, DH2, Imperium Maledictum, Wrath & Glory, new Horus Heresy game).

What version would I want to play of Shadowrun? Why exactly? I can read each edition, plus all rules supplements (which are a LOT for SR), but that would first take a while, another issue is that I wouldn't be able to keep straight in my head all the rules. So I was already thinking on how I would write up each rules edition in a document for comparison. Then other systems joined the conga party, like 40k, Star Wars, etc. Another issue is that IF I play such a system again, not every edition is equally supported (if at all) in my VTT of choice (Foundry), and not every edition had equal support from a supplement point of view. So there are certain side qualifiers, besides the system itself. And the issue isn't just system xyz is better then abc, it's about if I like something better or not (subjective). So it would be beneficial to compare the rules without judgement, but in detail.

The question:
So the thought went from comparing one specific system (Shadowrun) across multiple editions where you would have certain similarities between the different editions. To doing that for multiple systems, which would have certain high level commonalities, but at a detail level it would vary greatly. Then I thought: "Surely someone must have had the same thought before, did someone already build this?", so out googling I went. I do see frameworks for describing games, so you can compare them to each other, but less so on a game mechanic level, and more about a general sense of game level. While usefull to a certain degree, not what I was looking for. So, has anyone made such a framework? Or does anyone have any thoughts on this?

But why?:
Well, if there's a framework, I can start with filling out bits and pieces without having to remember everything and could easily keep the rules editions straight. Not only to split the work, but also keep it relevant for later use. Shadowrun 1e is from 1989 for example and if I ever get my hands on Shadworun 13 in 2061 (Mr.C age: 85), I can just add to the database and compare.

 

[GuardianLurker]

There are all KINDS of ways to compare PnP (TTRPG) systems, depending on what you're looking to analyze.

For me, I pretty much start with the dice mechanics:
*Single Die vs Target
*Dice Pools, with variants of summed/success, small/limited/large, same size/varying size
*Custom Dice
*Cards
*Diceless/No Randomization

Kind of independent is how or if the dice mechanics handle "criticals"
*Exploding Dice
*Degrees of Success (and/or Failure)
*Special Results (e.g. Nat 1s, doubles, etc.)
*None

Then I move to character structure, creation, and advancement:
*Structure: Skill-based/Class-based
*Creation: Point-buy/Menu-selection (random/choices)/Dice Rolls
*Advancement: Static/Slow/Quick

Another big system nod is whether the system uses meta-currency.
*Optional/Small-scale (e.g. "Hero Points")
*Ebb and Flow/Economy (e.g. Light-side/Dark-side in FFG's Star Wars)
*Narration-based (e.g. FATE)

From there I start looking at Genre, World Setting, and Weight (both figurative and literal).

In all of these divisions are really broad-strokes, and there are often little tweaks. Some systems may use different things for different parts of play (which increases the weight), or combine them together. I'm also not claiming that the divisions/categories are exhaustive and complete. There's still plenty of innovations happening and that I've missed, but it generally works for me.

 

[GMMichael]

If I'm reading you right, Modos RPG is set up to do this. The rules are modular and catalogued, so any variant has its own subset of new and/or modified rules. Grab a free copy from DTRPG - the catalog is in the back.

D&D 6 seems to be taking a stab at this with its "glossary" of rules, but there's a lot of interrelation going on, so I wouldn't call it "modular" yet.

 

[Cergorach]

If I'm reading you right, Modos RPG is set up to do this. The rules are modular and catalogued, so any variant has its own subset of new and/or modified rules. Grab a free copy from DTRPG - the catalog is in the back.

D&D 6 seems to be taking a stab at this with its "glossary" of rules, but there's a lot of interrelation going on, so I wouldn't call it "modular" yet.

No, you're not reading it right or I'm expressing myself poorly. I'm not looking at a particular RPG system, I'm looking for a framework where I can parse how any game is built.

So:
Game1_____Edition2_____Game2
Initiative:
Roll 1D6 highest goes first_____Roll 1D6+Dex highest goes first_____Roll 1D20+Quickness lowest decides who goes first
etc.

That way you can compare directly between each system/edition and decide what you like more, what you can live with and what absolute deal breakers are.

That said, it would also be a way to quickly identify which are your and your groups pain points and see if it's doable to create house rules for that, it could be as simple as porting over a rule from a different edition. You could also use it as a tool to streamline your preferred edition.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Yeah, the system I use doesn't work well for cross-edition comparisons, I'll admit. Very few systems radically change their mechanical approach as they age, at least at the gross level. And of course, they also have to have enough different editions to really see the drift as well.

I've never tried cross-edition. Let's try on the AD&D family tree.

AD&D (1e): Single Die vs. Target (d20); No critical rules (but Nat 20's and 1's very popular house rule); Class-based, Dice Rolls, Quick (at least to Name Level); No meta-currency; Medieval(-ish) Fantasy, Implied Setting (Greyhawk, but most homebrew/generic), 8/10 on weight (inconsistent approaches for subsystems)

AD&D (2e): Single Die vs. Target (d20); No critical rules (but Nat 20's and 1's very popular house rule); Class-based, Dice Rolls, Quick; No meta-currency; Medieval(-ish) Fantasy, Implied Setting (Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, but most homebrew/generic), 7/10 on weight (consistency greatly increased). Also TONS of alternative settings.

D&D (3e): Single Die vs. Target (d20); Special Results; Class-based, Point Buy, Quick; No meta-currency; Medieval(-ish) Fantasy, No implied setting, 6/10 on weight (Now consistent)

D&D (4e): Single Die vs. Target (d20); Special Results; Class-based, Point Buy, Quick; No meta-currency, but many classes have "fuel"; Medieval(-ish) Fantasy, Forgotten Realms, 6/10 on weight (Unified class structures, but many more classes)

D&D (5e): Single Die vs. Target (d20); Special Results; Class-based, Point Buy, Quick; Small scale metacurrency (Inspiration); Medieval(-ish) Fantasy, Implied Greyhawk, 5/10 on weight. Advantage/Disadvantage for benefits/penalties.

Well, some of the edition changes do manage to pop-up, but unsurprisingly, in this point of view D&D looks like D&D. And yet, each edition feels (and plays differently). I'm not sure what I could pull out that would be applicable to any other TTRPG though. For instance, the single biggest difference between editions is how they approach spells, and then class abilities. That's not something that GURPS or Hero/Champions deals with in the same way.

 

[Deset Gled]

No, you're not reading it right or I'm expressing myself poorly. I'm not looking at a particular RPG system, I'm looking for a framework where I can parse how any game is built.

The short answer is: no.

Such a framework doesn't exist. If you start reading threads about game "design" or "theory" it will quickly become apparent that there simply is no consensus on how games even work, let alone a guide for how to parse them the way you are describing.

 

[GMMichael]

The short answer is: no.

Such a framework doesn't exist. If you start reading threads about game "design" or "theory" it will quickly become apparent that there simply is no consensus on how games even work, let alone a guide for how to parse them the way you are describing.

Pretty much. I bet someone could abstract it out, like for a game theory course, but I doubt it would hit the points that OP wants.

 

[Cergorach]

The short answer is: no.

Such a framework doesn't exist. If you start reading threads about game "design" or "theory" it will quickly become apparent that there simply is no consensus on how games even work, let alone a guide for how to parse them the way you are describing.

I remember in the 2000-2010 era (somewhere) on the forum some people were discussing parsing pnp RPG rules into a universal XML like format (for use in digital RPG tools like character generators, proto VTTs, and the like). That never happened (at least not on here that I read at the time).

Pretty much. I bet someone could abstract it out, like for a game theory course, but I doubt it would hit the points that OP wants.

I'll probably start categorizing things out with one RPG and then adding items and reorganizing them as I add more. I will chuck it in some form of database so I could easily pull data and reorganize it.

Quite a few systems are a complete mess when talking about organization, others use way too many words to describe a rule, etc. For use in a VTT (and of course in person play) you would want coherently organized rules, that are easy to find and easy to read. Also separating rules from 'fluff' would, remove artwork, etc. would compress a lot of rulebooks.