D&D General Is This Evil? D&D Morality.

[Mercurius]

Ahh, a big subject: What is "evil?" Does it even exist? Is it subjective?

I don't think there's a right answer, except maybe in a specific context. I mean, if we're talking about D&D, it is whatever the rules say (e.g. Alignment) and/or what the DM says, as far as their campaign is concerned.

So I tend to think it is on us to decide, whether as individuals or DMs. We can look to literature and film for different perspectives. For instance, for Tolkien evil was mostly about domination - enforcing one's will over others. That was the "fall" of both Morgoth and Sauron. Morgoth actually wanted to subvert Iluvatar's creation itself - to mold the Song of the Ainur to his will, and in his own image (rather than Iluvatar's vision). Sauron was a bit more down to earth in that he seemed "only" to dominate earthly life -that is, Middle-earth. I think Tolkien said something in The Silmarillion about Sauron only being less evil than Morgoth in that he served another - but this changed with Morgoth was cast into the Void and Sauron became the big bad guy.

But for Tolkien, domination is key - especially with regards to "free peoples." Not sure how he felt about domination over animals, and beings of (supposedly) "lesser sentience." I would think the nature of free will and sentience would be crucial. Meaning, regardless of whether or not it is evil to dominate a cow, Tolkien would probably believe it is, at least, more evil to dominate a human, elf, dwarf, or hobbit. I would also guess that he would think factory farming and such were "evil."

Now in the case of your alien species, maybe they see humans in a similar way that we see cows. Maybe humans lack something that makes them--to this alien species--"not people." I would play with the hivemind angle...that they view this as the threshold for being a true people, and thus worth of ethical behavior.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Symbiosis is also natural.

And predatory is often part of that in nature.

 

[Yaarel]

And predatory is often part of that in nature.

Humans are predatory, literally evolving as hunters.

Among humans, the evil begins when using predatory skills against other humans.



I have a humanist (humanocentric) ethical view. But I am open to evidence if certain species, such as other apes as well as dolphins and whales, might legally constitute "persons".

Meanwhile, irrational cruelty is unethical, regardless of whether species are persons or not.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Is it evil? Overall, I would say yes. That doesn't mean the humans can't also be evil, they totally can.

But "we must exterminate these thinking beings who could be potentially reasoned with, in order to protect <x valuable thing>" sounds pretty clearly like evil to me. There's no room for trying a different solution. No room for setting boundaries and enforcing them. It's fundamentally coercive and violent, desiring that extermination.

For the record, I would put the North American effort to exterminate wolves in a similar spot. It's not quite the same, because wolves are non-sapient and thus cannot (even in principle) be reasoned or negotiated with, but it's a similar "we absolutely, positively MUST destroy this species that causes us problems, no matter what."

Doing an evil thing because you have a good reason is, on the whole, more sympathetic than doing an evil thing for a crappy reason. That does not change whether the thing done is evil or not, but it may change how others treat the evildoer.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well cosmic evil used to exist in D&D. Not so much now.

It still does, don't know why you think it went away.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It still does, don't know why you think it went away.

It's a very common 5e edition war talking point.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Humans are predatory, literally evolving as hunters.

And evolving from gatherers.

Among humans, the evil begins when using predatory skills against other humans.

Two humans in competition for limited resources is not evil, it is survival.

Now, one human killing another when it is understood there are sufficient resources for both, is evil.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It's a very common 5e edition war talking point.

But I don't see it, there are tons of cosmic evils.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But I don't see it, there are tons of cosmetic evils.

Cosmic, not cosmetic, but sure. Hence why I said it's a talking point, rather than an actual fact. There's been a lot of grumbling from certain vocal corners of the D&D fanbase that 5e has neutered alignment, that it is destroying the foundations of the game by moving away from sapient beings that are "always Chaotic Evil" or whatever.

I find most of those people very frustrating and generally refuse to engage with them on this subject.

 

[nevin]

It depends on context. fighting for survival because there aren't enough resources and only one can survive is simply nature in action. Some species win and some species lose when they come into conflict over resources.
Now if one species is killing the other because they want thier stuff, land, or resources but could survive without them then that's Evil. Probably the most common evil that mankind is guilty of and always trying to explain why it was necessary and right.