Is this fair? -- predict the general opinion

[Agent Oracle]

I realized that what the OP was asking was "How do you think most people will respond to this scenario"... but i believe that it is important to be able to discuss how this happens.

Incedentaly, if you wanted this to be properly done: the poll options should have been:

"(I think this was) fair (and I believe most other people think it's) fair"
"(ditto) fair (ditto) unfair"
"(Ditto) fair (ditto) other"
"(Ditto) Unfair (Ditto) Fair"
etc. etc.

Then you would get both the proper responces, and the proper readings.

 

[Gargoyle]

I believe at first glance most players I know will think that is unfair.

On a side note, what is a "macguffin"?

A mcguffin is a plot device that motivates characters toward some goal. For instance, in Star Wars it was the Death Star plans. In a D&D game, it is usually some treasure, or a magical artifact, or whatever. Using the term mcGuffin here means that it isn't important what it is, just understand that the group got what they came for. Alfred Hitchcock used the term first I think.

 

[Echohawk]

On a side note, what is a "macguffin"?

A MacGuffin is plot device.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Note: This poll is asking what you think others will say about the fairness of this scenario. This thread is for discussing how you think others will respond to this scenario.

Hypothetical scenario:



What will the general opinion be of this question: Is this fair?

I will post another thread/poll asking what you, personally, think/feel about this in a couple of days, or when the poll has at least 100 votes.

Please, vote only how you think others will think/feel about this scenario.

Quasqueton

I have to ask - why this needless distinction in the voting? You know most people won't vote this way and it really is meaningless. People will generally assume their opinions are shared by others and vote how they think anyways.

 

[Quasqueton]

Well, we reached 100 votes faster than I anticipated. I've started the "real" poll here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=172293

As of this post, the results here are:

Thinks most folks will say the scenario is fair: 18.35%

Thinks most folks will say the scenario is not fair: 72.48%

Other: 9.17%

Let's see if other people think what we think they think.

Quasqueton

 

[blargney the second]

I voted 'fair' because of all the long-time D&D players on this board.

 

[Pbartender]

You’ve cleared out the dungeon and found the McGuffin you were seeking. Then you come to a room located in the back corner of the dungeon. In the room is only a large lever sticking up out of the floor. You search the room and find a secret door in one wall. You can’t find a way to open the door. The rogue searches the door and lever for traps, and finds none. The monk pulls the lever. He has to make a saving throw – he rolls a 19 on the die, adds in his mods, and fails the save. He turns into a pile of fine dust on the floor.

Okay. Let's see from a player's perspective...

It's fairly obvious that the lever has something to do with the secret door. But, it's also obvious that an obvious lever that opens a secret door will not be safe to pull.

So, I'm going to make a few assumptions here...

First, that the Rogue took 20 on his search check to find the opening mechanism of the secret door, and later to find traps on the lever and the secret door. It is likely that he's the best searcher (and certainly the only one qualified to find traps of this sort of difficiulty), and so the traps purposefully have a Search DC that no one in the party can detect.

Second, the Monk will arguably have the best Saving Throws in the entire party. He failed on a 19, which means, metagame-wise, that no one in the party will be able to avoid death with anything short of a natural 20. Again, this is something that can only be purposefully decided and included by the DM.

...that means this entire trap was purposefully designed to be practically unavoidable death. On top of that, it happens after the adventure's victory condition, obtaining the McGuffin, has been satisfied, which only rubs salt in the wound.

Now, how fair this situation is, depends on what a few other circumstances...

Is there a way out other than the secret door? If yes, then it's the Monk's own foolishness that got him killed, since there was no particularly good reason to go through the secret door. If not, then the DM has put the PCs into a no-win situation... Stay put and slowly starve to death, or try the lever and kill yourselves quickly in the hopes of that 1 in 20 chance to survive and escape.

Does the lever actually open the door? If so, then there's a purpose to the death. If not, then the death is completely meaningless.

Anyway, the circumstances will likely determine how "fair" any group thinks the situation is.

In general, I think most people would deem it "unfair" due to the inevitably of the death, the lack of any chance to determine lethalness, the lack of any better options to open the secret door, and the meaninglessness of the death.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I voted unfair, because 3e tends to foster the idea that everything is "fair and balanced," and even if it is a rare fatal trap, the save should be easy.

But I think it is fair, and even if not, who cares? Life ain't fair.

 

[werk]

I voted unfair in this one. I think a lot of DMs run a game that is level appropriate all the way through, and anything apart from this is deemed foul.

I think this is a section at the beginning of the DMG...yep, pg48, tailored or status quo. Most here (IMO) run tailored as opposed to status quo, like many of us old timers.

We used to always have the Golden Glowing Grab-me^TM at the end of dungeons, and we'd all look to the new guy when the DM started to describe it. Invariably, that newbie would run up and grab it and, occasionally, survive. Regardless, we'd all laugh and ask him why'd he do that? Stupid newbie!

I don't know if it was fair, but it was definitely conditioning.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I voted "unfair" but for a reason that has been only lightly touched on - that we don't have the full story.

The DC seems high (a monk failing on a 19?) but there may be something else we don't know (a low ability score, no boosting items, lower level than rest of party and missed by 1 or something).

But why didn't the rogue find the trap? Because the search roll was low and missed the DC or because the DM split hairs (the trap wasn't on the lever but was on the floor around the lever).

Was the rest of the dungeon a save-or-die-fest? Were there other secret doors and levers that were similar to this? Was there a warning of some sort that they missed?

There is too much information that we don't have that would likely make too many hesitant to say "fair" at this time.