Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

Is this fair? -- (your personal thought/feelings)

  • Yes

    Votes: 98 29.1%
  • No

    Votes: 188 55.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 51 15.1%

ehren37 said:
Exactly. Theres a contingent at ENWorld who believes Raiders of the Lost Ark would have been better if it was 90 minutes of Indiana Jones taking spending 10 minutes searching a 5 foot square, throwing a rope on it, throwing a stick at it, sending a native to walk forwards, then proceeding and repeating. The golden idol? Screw picking that up, its time to leave. Roll credits.

I find that incredibly lame and sad.

The only way this is a fair scenario is if the monk isnt dead, but teleported or something.

There's a difference between pulling a lever that potentially stands between you and your golden idol and pulling a lever you don't know the function of after you have the golden idol safely in your hand. The situation is a classic "do you take the bait" scenario. The players have no idea what lies behind the secret door, their objective does not require that they find out, the lever is obviously a potential trap, smart players either walk away or do a significantly more thorough job of protecting themselves from the potential risk. This trap is tough, but the players in the scenario were foolish too. A wiser party could have easily handled the trap without losing a party member.
 

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What is the purpose of a trap?

Kill intruders? Stop intruders? Delay? Distract? Weaken? Harm? Discombobulate? Aggravate? Annoy? Deter? Entertain? Please?

Who places a trap? Who is "responsible" for a trap? A BBEG or a DM? Is it metagaming to say that the scenario is unfair.

What if the rogue did find a trap, and the group decided to let the monk pull the lever anyway, presuming that he had the best chance to avoid the effects? Maybe they loaded the monk up with all the party's protection magic.

What if the party used a summoned monster to pull the lever? Would the scenario be unfair, then? Is the unfairness based on the results or on the set up?

If a dungeon is full of kobolds and goblins, does that mean that there will not/can not be a disintegrate trap back in a corner room? If a dungeon is full of demons and devils, does that mean that there will not/can not be a sleep trap back in a corner room?

When I posed this question in the other thread, where folks could predict the voting outcome in this thread, this is what I expected:

I figured that most people would predict that most people here would say the scenario was unfair. But I figured that when voting personal opinion, I expected the fair/unfair numbers to be close to even. I thought it possible that the fair votes could actually outnumber the unfair votes. I was wrong, and I'm surprised.

Quasqueton
 

ThirdWizard said:
Of course, they'll eat the eggs. Or at least, they'll interact with the eggs in some way, and being that eggs are a type of food, more than likely it will be by eating them.

I mean, what are the odds of finding eggs in the middle of a dungeon? That's just weird. Obviously, something very important is going down with those eggs. You don't just find eggs in the middle of a dungeon. Is there anyone alive who would merely pass by the eggs? Who can do that???

Perhaps there are two groups of people responding. The unfair crowd generally thinks of adventuring as exploring, being a hero, and facing the unknown in front of you with eyes wide open, blazenly.

The other group sees adventuring as carefully making your way through life, touching nothing that looks odd, analyzing every detail for minutia, and generally being scared of every shadow you come across.

Yeah, that's an exaggeration, but I find the first type of adventuring far more fun than the second, and I would rather play in a game built around the first, more cinematic and what I consider adventurous.

You're completely wrong. What I'm talking about is adventurers, not lemmings with spiked chains. The whole point of roleplaying is to potrary a hero, who is a kind of character, who hopefully inhabits a world that exhibits some logic. To put it succinctly, a little common sense goes a long way.

The person who would eat the eggs benefict without elaborate testing is probably a metagamer, who probably figures the GM would not turn him into a hezrou when he eats the demonic eggs benedict, or that the eggs benedict are a ghostly illusion that causes wraiths to attack, or its a psychic projection created by a relatively unintelligent and unimaginive magical beast that uses such illusions to lure prey.

We're talking about a dashing hero who thinks someone within the last few hours left a plate of eggs benedict for him in case he got hungry. Or suppose he thinks it is a benign or even helpful dish; whose eggs does he suppose they are, and how will they feel about him eating them?

It's true, the eggs are obviously significant, or they wouldn't be in such a strange place. But "signifcant" does not mean good. Statues of adventurers frozen in terror, rendered in incredible detail, is not a sign that you should investigate and see about selling some of them off for loot. It means something has a petrification ability.

That sword sticking out of that skull in the altar room of the evil temple? There's probably a reason no one has strolled along and plucked it from its resting place in all these years. If it's easy to acquire, you probably don't want it.

This isn't about searching 5' by 5' squares, this is about not acting like a total yahoo when you go into a dangerous situation. It's no different than if you were playing Vampire, and a mysterious wolf started following you, and you offered it some food and tried to take it home.
 

takyris said:
I believe you're attempting to use humorous sarcasm to make a point, but your metaphor is badly flawed. Did Indy need to roll a natural 20 to outrun the boulder?

I'm not arguing against traps. I'm arguing against traps that the rogue can't possibly detect and that the guy with the best saves can't realistically survive.

Who knows what Indy rolled. What was the mechanic in the Indy RPG? I don't think it was D20. He may have used some kind of Hero Point mechanism to save his hide too.

The real screw job was the final scene, so they go through all this and if they look inside the treasure box they all die? Did those Nazis get a save? Those spirits were way over the CR of the people there. What if Indy had tried to fight them? There was only one "right" way to avoid that trap and that really limits creative freedom of the player/movie character.

In any event my metaphor probably isn't correct...unless like you are right and Indy needed to roll a 20 to beat that boulder.

And I'm not really trying to make any points about the fairness of death traps in a RPG. Everything depends on the players and how they enjoy playing the game, with some other factors tossed in. I'd probably put a few more clues in, like the mentioned dust pile.
 

Quasqueton said:
What if the rogue did find a trap, and the group decided to let the monk pull the lever anyway, presuming that he had the best chance to avoid the effects? Maybe they loaded the monk up with all the party's protection magic.

I'd probably tell the Monks player, "that was stupid, but that is what happens when you decide to set off traps with yourself! Get out 4d6..."
 

All this talk of finding plates of eggs benedict in the middle of dungeons is reminding me of The Shadow People by Margaret St. Clair. Fun book, an obvious source for Gygax's "Descent into the Depths of the Earth" series, and which made me decide that all good dungeons need enticing plates of food left sitting around seemingly at random just waiting for some foolish adventurer to come along and eat them :)
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Movies and games are not the same thing and what works in one does not always work in the other. I would think that is obvious.

I always thought "cinematic" games were considered a good thing around here. But, I completely disagree with you there. My games can be Indiana Jones-like adventurous just fine. You should try it. It's fun.

pawsplay said:
The person who would eat the eggs benefict without elaborate testing is probably a metagamer, who probably figures the GM would not turn him into a hezrou when he eats the demonic eggs benedict, or that the eggs benedict are a ghostly illusion that causes wraiths to attack, or its a psychic projection created by a relatively unintelligent and unimaginive magical beast that uses such illusions to lure prey.

*jaw drop* We play in two very different games. That's okay, though.
 

T. Foster said:
All this talk of finding plates of eggs benedict in the middle of dungeons is reminding me of The Shadow People by Margaret St. Clair. Fun book, an obvious source for Gygax's "Descent into the Depths of the Earth" series, and which made me decide that all good dungeons need enticing plates of food left sitting around seemingly at random just waiting for some foolish adventurer to come along and eat them :)
Could be worse - it could have been a bottle marked "DRINK ME" and a cake marked "EAT ME". :)
 


ThirdWizard said:
I always thought "cinematic" games were considered a good thing around here. But, I completely disagree with you there. My games can be Indiana Jones-like adventurous just fine. You should try it. It's fun.

Hate to disappoint you, but lots here seem to feel that if your character wakes up and yawns without taking proper precautions you're an idiot...
 

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