Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[Quasqueton]

For the record: This scenario is completely made up, is not based on a real scenario, is not something I DMed, is not something in which I had a PC.

Quasqueton

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Assuming the party is of such level that character death actually matters (ie low to mid level), then this trap is simply bad design - save or die with an extremely high DC just isn't fun. (As opposed to save or 3d6 Con damage, or save or unleash chain lightning on party, or...)

Treated as a test of the characters, this trap's clearly unfair. It's (effectively) an undetectable get-disintegrated-with-all-your-gear trap with no saving throw.

But I don't play to test the numbers on my character sheet against the numbers on the DM's scenario booklet. The trap is a test of the players.

I think good* players are the ones who, whenever possible, arrange things so they don't need to roll the dice, and those are the players who'd survive the trap and progress towards the (presumably rich) treasure that awaits!

Edited to add:

* This use of the word "good" needs a qualifier. I accept that there are players who think all traps should be detectable and nonlethal if undetected, and such groups would doubtless call me a crap DM. By their lights, they would be correct to do so.

By "good players" I mean those who would be likely to survive in the most challenging tactical environments. Other groups are less Darwinian and would presumably call "good players" those who were best at improvisational theatre. Or something.

 

[Bagpuss]

If the adventurers are automatically going to pull the lever, there's no point having a lever; you might as well just have the secret door pop open when the players enter the room.

If a trap is just going to automatically kill the players you might as well not have the trap and just rip up their character sheets when they walk in the room.

If your running a dungeon where the lever is trapped with a trap impossible (at their level) to detect which instantly kills them on a failed save, how is a player ment to know if the next door nob is similiarly trapped or, the next 5ft of corridor?

If you put a lever in the dungeon and you don't intend the players to ever pull it, why put it in? If you have just put it in to kill a player, why not just hit them with a divine DM Fait lightning bolt and be done with it?

All that lever is going to do is make sure the players never pull another lever again, or open a door or move another inch, without testing it with a 10ft pole or using a rope, etc. Hardy what I call heroic behaviour. Sound "tactical play" perhaps but not the sort of game I'ld want to be playing in.

Edit: To steal a phrase from the following poster.

This trap is definately unfair (and but sometimes I don't mind a little unfair in my games); what I don't like about it more is it is also "unfun".

First it kills a character for one bad roll.
2nd it makes the rogue feel useless since he can't detect traps, one of his characters main abilities.
3rd it discourages curiousity.

 

[Kesh]

I'm just going to copy & paste from the other thread:

I had to vote Other, because it depends on the circumstances.

If it happened exactly as described, it's completely unfair. Further, I'd consider it unfun.

If this is deep in a dungeon full of insta-kill traps, then it's a bit of a toss-up. They've got the macguffin, they are trying to get out, there's no other (obvious) avenue of escape... well, they should have seen it coming. Still, not that fun.

If, however, there's an obvious warning that the only way to escape is to pull the lever, but whoever pulls it will die, it just became a dramatic situation. Someone can choose to sacrifice themselves for the others, or the group can try to figure out a way to trigger the lever without someone getting killed, or they can look for another way out.

The difference is, in the latter instance, the players choose how to react instead of getting a "bang, you're dead" response. Which wasn't fun when playing cops 'n robbers as a kid, either.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If a trap is just going to automatically kill the players you might as well not have the trap and just rip up their character sheets when they walk in the room.

It doesn't, though. It kills whatever pulls the lever, which could be anything; I have no idea whether this is an option in d20, but in 1e you could have something like an unseen servant pull the lever.

If your running a dungeon where the lever is trapped with a trap impossible (at their level) to detect which instantly kills them on a failed save, how is a player ment to know if the next door nob is similiarly trapped or, the next 5ft of corridor?

They don't. They proceed carefully, cautiously and quietly at all times or risk death.

If you put a lever in the dungeon and you don't intend the players to ever pull it, why put it in?

To test them.

This is a party that's already retrieved the McGuffin; they've presumably already achieved their purpose from the adventure. Are they satisfied with their success, or does some combination of curiosity or greed push them further? And if it does, is their curiosity/greed matched by their caution?

 

[Numion]

If a trap is just going to automatically kill the players you might as well not have the trap and just rip up their character sheets when they walk in the room.

But only the one pulling the lever was killed, no? Even if pulling the lever was mandatory for adventurers (as you put it, but I don't agree), there's the choice "who's going to pull it?".

 

[Bagpuss]

It doesn't, though. It kills whatever pulls the lever, which could be anything; I have no idea whether this is an option in d20, but in 1e you could have something like an unseen servant pull the lever.

You can't tell that from the original discription, besides the wizard might not have a suitable spell memorized or even available at their level.

They don't. They proceed carefully, cautiously and quietly at all times or risk death.

Yeah our party did that in the Whispering Caern after finding the wind trap, it took us two months in game time to complete an adventure that might have normally taken us a week in game time. Because we rested and went back to town after nearly every encounter. Thank god we don't play like that anymore (although we have had more character deaths and near misses).

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

You can't tell that from the original discription, besides the wizard might not have a suitable spell memorized or even available at their level.

Possible edition clash there; in the version of the game I play "Unseen servant" is a commonly-available spell that any first level m-u could cast. If such a spell wasn't available in the spellbooks, then I'd say that the DM should make sure that pulling the lever with a rope was safe.

Yeah our party did that in the Whispering Caern after finding the wind trap, it took us two months in game time to complete an adventure that might have normally taken us a week in game time. Because we rested and went back to town after nearly every encounter. Thank god we don't play like that anymore (although we have had more character deaths and near misses).

Different strokes, etc.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Treated as a test of the characters, this trap's clearly unfair. It's (effectively) an undetectable get-disintegrated-with-all-your-gear trap with no saving throw.

But I don't play to test the numbers on my character sheet against the numbers on the DM's scenario booklet. The trap is a test of the players.

I think good* players are the ones who, whenever possible, arrange things so they don't need to roll the dice, and those are the players who'd survive the trap and progress towards the (presumably rich) treasure that awaits!

Edited to add:

* This use of the word "good" needs a qualifier. I accept that there are players who think all traps should be detectable and nonlethal if undetected, and such groups would doubtless call me a crap DM. By their lights, they would be correct to do so.

By "good players" I mean those who would be likely to survive in the most challenging tactical environments. Other groups are less Darwinian and would presumably call "good players" those who were best at improvisational theatre. Or something.

Great post. Some players want their acting abilty challanged, some want thier brains wracked. It all depends and the answer to this question will vary wildly depending on what kind of player answers it. I think it would be great, and I know the veteran players at my table wouldn't even think of touching it without some kind of plan.

 

[Barak]

Hmm. If I was a BBEG in a game played by some of the posters, I think I'd have the entrance to my real lair openable by a simple, non-hidden, non-magical lever. Then they'd -never- get me.