Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

Is this fair? -- (your personal thought/feelings)

  • Yes

    Votes: 98 29.1%
  • No

    Votes: 188 55.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 51 15.1%

Someone said:
But you´re talking about absolute proof of a negative proposition, which is impossible. Nobody is discussing that. There´s no way that you can be 100% sure that there´s a trap on the lever, sort of the player character activating it; after all, it may be constructed not to react to summoned critters or magical forces, and to foil divinations. Going into the dungeon with that mentality would lead to, well, not entering the dungeon at all.

See my remarks to silentspace above. I don't care about proving the existence of a trap, all I care about is not getting my character killed. If the goal is to open the secret door and it's possible that pulling the lever opens the door then I'll find some way to pull the lever while putting my character at the minimum risk possible. I don't care whether there is or is not a trap. What I care about is that the trap is a possibility and if there are ways to avoid the possible risk pulling the lever represents I'll take advantage of them.

My point about negative data is simply that you can never prove with a Search check that no trap exists, so (from my perspective) acting as if a Search check is absolute proof relies on the metagame knowledge that "taking 20" plus "challenges appropriate to level" equates to proof positive that a trap isn't present.
 
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ThirdWizard said:
By your view, everything everyone does is always metagaming.

That's somewhat accurate. I think the idea that characters (as opposed to players) make decisions in the game is silly. The player provides the intelligence and decision-making ability for his character. An individual player might incorporate certain personality elements from his imaginary character into that process but that doesn't eliminate the fact that all decisions are still colored by the players perceptions (including the fact that he's playing a game and that both the game and the individual group the player is participating in have standards, rules and conventions which are integral parts of his perception of the game environment).

So everything a player does isn't necessarily metagaming, but everyone, IMO, metagames and almost all choices made during the game are colored by the metagame perceptions of the player controlling the character.
 

takyris said:
If I'm in a D&D world, I don't consider knowing that the party monk has good saves is metagaming.

I don't either, but using that as an excuse to have the Monk be your official trapspringer is definitely metagaming. How do you think your backflipping friend would feel about being elected "most likely to survive the trap" if you were all stuck in the dungeon? Would he willingly pull all potentially trapped levers? Or would he be upset that you weren't all sharing the risk of pulling potentially trapped levers equally? After the first time a scything blade nearly missed decapitating him, would he be reassured that he could survive the next trap or would he start looking for ways to avoid being in that same dangerous position again? The attitude that "I'll only lose some HPs" or "I can probably survive if I get poisoned" (which is exactly the type of thinking motivating the Monk's player's decisions when he pulls the lever) is obviously metagame thinking, because it's ignoring the character's perspective (even if I save I'll probably get hurt real bad and there's always a chance that I'll die) and totally looking at it from the player's perspective (there's only a very small chance that I'll suffer any consequence that will interfere with my play of this character for more than a brief portion of this play session).

takyris said:
And yeah, if it were really me and my friends in that dungeon, I wouldn't pull the lever unless I had to. But then, my friends and I aren't trying to be heroic.

How is pulling a potentially trapped lever heroic? It seems to me that you're equating "heroic" with "impatient". I just don't get that.
 
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The assumptions you are making are still, IMO, based on metagame thinking. The idea that one person looking over a potentially trapped area and failing to see something isn't proof about the presence of a trap one way or the other. Negative data can never disprove an hypothesis. The only reason the Rogue's conclusion bears as much weight as it does in some people's mind is because their perception of the game environment is colored by the concepts of "taking 20" and "level appropriateness". Those two metagame concepts turn negative data "I don't see a trap" into a positive conclusion "there is no trap". The character's assumptions about the reality of their game world are being colored by the player's knowledge about how the rules of the game work and what the basic assumptions of the game are concerning challenges the characters will face. That is, by any definition, metagame thinking.

I have this friend, here. She's got a real keen eye, a real sense for detail, a ginger touch. See, she's spent her life robbing the rich and famous of every coin they've got, so she's really familiar with security measures. She knows how traps are made, she can dismantle them. She's done so before. She, barring an unfortunate fate, will continue to do so for the forseeable future. You see, that's why she's even with us on this little lark. Because we know there's probably security measures down there guarding the McGuffin, and this bird knows security measures from a thousand years ago and from today. Pit her against any locksmith or trapmaker in the town, she'll get at what you're protecting before you even know she's there. She's robbed the houses of some wizards and priests, too, so we know a bit of runes and hexes aren't any scarier to her than a bell on a string.

Now, maybe she won't know everything down there. This is new territory for her, after all. She's good, best in the world, maybe, but she's not perfect.

Deep in this thing, we see a suspicious stick, and we send her to check it out. She's the best eye we got and the best eye maybe in the world. She checks it, takes her time, goes over it real good, feeling in cracks and looking for holes, and trying to pick up runes, even licking the thing. I'm not sure what that tells her, but she says she can't find anything on the lever, but she did find this mechanism behind one of the stones in the wall. I was astonished. I mean, I'm a dwarf, I know stonework, but this little doorway could be hidden from even ME. She once stole an archmage's wand from his bedroom while he slept. We've sent her at a few doors down here where she told us the same stuff, and we walked through, no problems. Why should this be any different?

Still, it's a stick in the middle of the room, so I'm going to play it safe. This is a new environment for her, and she did take a nasty blow to the face from a spider a few rooms back. Good thing I have Chuck Norris here, too....

How is this, by any definition of the word, metagame thinking? Your basing your character's knowledge on your character's experience. Your characters know the rogue is good at finding traps and usually does so. That's not simply because of "level-appropriateness", that's because, over the course of any given adventure, the rogue is good at finding traps and usually does so.

The idea that the Monk can likely survive if there is a trap is also, totally, metagame thinking. No real person would voluntarily shoot themself in the head to determine if their gun were loaded with blanks or real bullets if other, safer, options (shoot at a target, shoot a dead animal carcass, shoot into a pillow, etc.) were available to determine the same information, even if they knew they would have a 3 in 4 chance of surviving the wound. It's ridiculous to say that characters in a fantasy game would do the equivalent simply because the numbers are on their side and say it has nothing to do with the fact that the player is aware he is playing a game.

Now Chuck Norris is a crazy kind of half orc. I don't know where, exactly he's from, but it ain't these parts. He doesn't trust an axe, but I've seen his bare hands break brick, I've seen him sprint accross town in less than half a minute, and I've seen mages lob fireballs at him, and he never seems to get scathed. In fact, we picked him up because of a fight we saw him in with a few wizards. There were fireworks like you wouldn't believe, but this kid got out. My sorceress for this journey, Mathilda, she said he resisted charm spells, disintigration spells, energy spells....almost any magic that could be dodged, this kid dodged it, and without even breaking a sweat he grabbed one of the wizards and forced them all to flee. He ain't clever or pretty, but he's a survivor, that's for sure. Once, we were caught by surprise when we forgot to have our halfling burgaler check a door. Kid removed the poison needle from his arm and, laughing, jammed it into the next green-skinned critter we saw -- the critter's skin almost boiled off his bones, that poison was so harsh. And this half-orc treated it like it was nothin'.

So, yeah, our burgaler says there's nothing there. So this guy, who's survived longer than most fullblood orcs I know, pulls the lever, just in case. Get this, the kid could survive a disintegration spell, but he gets disintegrated right there. Don't know how it happened, really. Must've missed something on the lever.

.....that's not knowing you're playing a game, that's using the evidence in the world to make your descisions. The world's evidence is -- this guy can take a mystical beating.

And before we get off on too much of a tangent, I just want to re-emphasize that I have no problem with metagame thinking. This is not a criticism of the "unfair" stance in this discussion. I'm just pointing out that use of metagame knowledge applies to both sides of the issue.

And I'm pointing out that viewing a character as good at finding traps or surviving disaster isn't metagame knowledge. It's character knowledge. So at least as far as my position is concerned, you're wrong.
 

How is pulling a potentially trapped lever heroic? It seems to me that you're equating "heroic" with "impatient". I just don't get that.

Heroism is braving the unknown. If you're only 85% sure that lever isn't trapped, pulling it is braving the unknown (however mildly).

How do you think your backflipping friend would feel about being elected "most likely to survive the trap" if you were all stuck in the dungeon? Would he willingly pull all potentially trapped levers? Or would he be offended that you weren't all sharing the risk of pulling potentially trapped levers equally?

If I got shot in the face seven times a day (eight on tuesdays) and survived, I wouldn't think that getting shot once on a day off would kill me.

Yes, he would willingly pull all trapped levers. Because he knows, in-character, that if the lever has some unexpected surprise, he's better at getting out of the way. Because, in-character, he has been better at getting out of the way of unexpected surprises to date. He wouldn't ask the wizard to pull the trapped lever -- what's the point, he'd just blow up or get poisoned or something, and then you're out a wizard. He doesn't know how to dodge fireballs, he doesn't have the training to resist poisons like you do. You know, in-character, you can survive most poisons, because you've been poisoned before and have survived when others have not.
 

Ourph said:
I don't either, but using that as an excuse to have the Monk be your official trapspringer is definitely metagaming. How do you think your backflipping friend would feel about being elected "most likely to survive the trap" if you were all stuck in the dungeon? Would he willingly pull all potentially trapped levers?

If my friend were tossed into this dungeon against his well, he might be pissed off -- although he might also opt to take one for the team. He's a hell of a lot more agile than I am, but then, I can hit harder than he can. I'd be in front if we ran into bad guys.

On the other hand, if my friend had specifically signed up to be part of a group of people who used their special skills and assets to get through this dungeon, him not wanting to be the guy who pulled the lever would be pretty whiny. Uh, dude, that's what you signed up to do. If I were in the dungeon for that reason, I wouldn't whine if I had to be the guy in front doing the hitting.

So, no. In the my-friend example, possibly, but in a D&D game, no. It's not metagaming. That's what the monk, quite literally, brings to the party. Survivability. In every game I've run or played in, unless we're tossed into things against our will, the party forms based on the idea of everyone using their unique skills. Deliberately not being able to see the monk's unique skill just because it doesn't explode or use spell slots is silly.

The attitude that "I'll only lose some HPs" or "I can probably survive if I get poisoned" is obviously metagame thinking - which is what's motivating the Monk's player's decisions when he pulls the lever.

It's certainmly metagaming if you say "I'll only lose some HPs." It's also not the world's greatest grammar. But it's not metagaming to say, "I'm the best person on the team at dodging attacks, and my training in the Jhin-Saris mysteries will let me cleanse my body of toxins if, by some horrific mischance, the lever holds a trap that Dalshin wasn't able to find. I think you all should stand back and let me give it a try."

Knowing your own abilities is not metagaming. It's immersion. Pretending NOT to know your own abilities, when your character uses them every day, often with his own survival at stake, is silly.

How is pulling a potentially trapped lever heroic? It seems to me that you're equating "heroic" with "impatient". I just don't get that.

Hey, if it's a dungeon full of evil stuff, and I've found a secret door, then pulling that lever might let me find a room full of evil masterminds that I'd have otherwise missed. Sure, having a lever open a secret door (that we've found, but cannot open) is weird, but maybe the lever summons a magical creature that asks a riddle or something, and THAT opens the secret door.

Exploring is heroic. The implication from the original post was that they'd explored everything else in the dungeon. If you've explored everything else and still haven't figured out a way through the secret door or a likely indication of what the lever does, you pull the lever.

At least, under the mindset that bad guys don't make levers with no purpose beyond killing people. (Cue David Spade in "The Emperor's New Groove": "Why does she even HAVE that lever?")
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I have this friend, here. She's got a real keen eye, a real sense for detail, a ginger touch. See, she's spent her life robbing the rich and famous of every coin they've got, so she's really familiar with security measures. She knows how traps are made, she can dismantle them.

Let's say you had a friend like this in the real world. Would you trust your life to her ability to spot traps? Would you risk your life on her word if there were a means to accomplishing your goal that wouldn't put your life at risk?

I wouldn't.

The only reason I can see that someone would make a different decision in an RPG is because they would know what her Search skill bonus was, that she took 20 and that the combination of those two things were more than enough to detect any level appropriate trap (and that the DM always presented the party with level appropriate challenges).
 

takyris said:
It's certainmly metagaming if you say "I'll only lose some HPs." It's also not the world's greatest grammar. But it's not metagaming to say, "I'm the best person on the team at dodging attacks, and my training in the Jhin-Saris mysteries will let me cleanse my body of toxins if, by some horrific mischance, the lever holds a trap that Dalshin wasn't able to find. I think you all should stand back and let me give it a try."

Knowing your own abilities is not metagaming. It's immersion. Pretending NOT to know your own abilities, when your character uses them every day, often with his own survival at stake, is silly.

You are obfuscating the point (and I have no idea what the purpose of the grammar comment is about, are contractions verbotten in casual conversation now?). An in character justification doesn't change the fact that the attitude the player has is colored by metagame thinking. Sure if a PC has to pull the lever, then the Monk should probably do it. The fact that the Monk's player is approaching the situation with the attitude of "Potential trap? No problem. I'll step up and pull the lever. That's my job!" is totally based on his knowledge that he's playing a game and that the game follows certain guidelines. A real person would look for options that allowed them to pull the lever without exposing them to such direct risk because they wouldn't have the assurance of knowing the basic assumptions and math that are shaping the player's perception.


Hey, if it's a dungeon full of evil stuff, and I've found a secret door, then pulling that lever might let me find a room full of evil masterminds that I'd have otherwise missed. Sure, having a lever open a secret door (that we've found, but cannot open) is weird, but maybe the lever summons a magical creature that asks a riddle or something, and THAT opens the secret door.

Exploring is heroic. The implication from the original post was that they'd explored everything else in the dungeon. If you've explored everything else and still haven't figured out a way through the secret door or a likely indication of what the lever does, you pull the lever.

At least, under the mindset that bad guys don't make levers with no purpose beyond killing people. (Cue David Spade in "The Emperor's New Groove": "Why does she even HAVE that lever?")

I've never said heroes shouldn't pull the lever. I do maintain that heroes can find a way to move the lever without actually touching it (even if that involves waiting a day or two to move it) while still being heroes. Nothing about "being heroic" indicates that you have to be impatient or incautious.
 

Ourph said:
Let's say you had a friend like this in the real world. Would you trust your life to her ability to spot traps? Would you risk your life on her word if there were a means to accomplishing your goal that wouldn't put your life at risk?

I wouldn't.

If she were a professional trap-finder, and if I'd signed on for a mission that involved traps... yeah. I'd sort of have to.

I mean, yeah, your "If there's a way to avoid it" is a duh, but only to a point. In a heroic game, there's only so much time I want to spend summoning monsters and asking them to pull levers for me. I'd happily do that garbage if I'd taken on "The Lair of Trappy McTrapster, Master of Traps", but if every useable object in the dungeon was like that, I'd find a new group.

Your mileage may, and almost certainly does, vary.

The only reason I can see that someone would make a different decision in an RPG is because they would know what her Search skill bonus was, that she took 20 and that the combination of those two things were more than enough to detect any level appropriate trap (and that the DM always presented the party with level appropriate challenges).

If you can't get into a PC's head enough to put in the context of "We take jobs we think we can do, and there weren't horrible nasty things well beyond our abilities in the rest of this hellhole, so yeah, I'm gonna logically conclude that even if there's a trap she can't find after a careful search, it'll probably be something we can limp away from afterward," then that's your issue.

Your assumption that knowing the degree of danger implies that one is metagaming by using the exact numbers doesn't hold up. I don't need a tape measure to decide whether it's safe to jump from a given height. I don't need a vision test to figure out which of my friends is the best at scouting when we play paintball. And if I've been watching a friend find and disable traps in life-threatening situations for awhile now, I don't need a rated score of her abilities to know that if she takes her time, there's not a heck of a lot she can't find.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
If I got shot in the face seven times a day (eight on tuesdays) and survived, I wouldn't think that getting shot once on a day off would kill me.

OK, let's say you have the superhuman ability to survive getting shot in the face 19 times out of 20. Note the term SURVIVE. It still hurts you just as much as it would hurt a normal person. You still look horrible and feel horrible until it heals, you just can't die. Now let's say you want to buy a TV. The guy at the counter gives you an option. You can give him $500 for the TV or you can let him shoot you in the face and get the same exact TV. Do you honestly let him shoot you, knowing that it's going to be excruciating and that you have a 1 in 20 chance of dying? Or do you pay the $500? Or, if you don't have the $500, do you just wait to get the TV until you DO have the $500?

The point is, there are easily available way to expose NO member of the party to risk. The fact that many players don't take those options (some don't even think of taking those options) is mostly based on metagame thinking about the consequences of setting off a trap (expenditure of resources and possible disruption in the flow of play) rather than in-character thinking (it will probably hurt, it may severely injure me and there's a possibility that I coudl die).
 

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