Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[I'm A Banana]

Let's say you had a friend like this in the real world. Would you trust your life to her ability to spot traps? Would you risk your life on her word if there were a means to accomplishing your goal that wouldn't put your life at risk?

I wouldn't.

Military units do this every day. "Sir, Intelligence indicates that the area ahead has no land mines." And then you act on that knowledge. You do trust the information of the specialists, when in life-or-death situations.

The only reason I can see that someone would make a different decision in an RPG is because they would know what her Search skill bonus was, that she took 20 and that the combination of those two things were more than enough to detect any level appropriate trap (and that the DM always presented the party with level appropriate challenges).

Or because their characters are heroes who take calculated risks as a matter of course, heroes who aren't intimidated by inoccuous levers.

OK, let's say you have the superhuman ability to survive getting shot in the face 19 times out of 20. Note the term SURVIVE. It still hurts you just as much as it would hurt a normal person. You still look horrible and feel horrible until it heals, you just can't die. Now let's say you want to buy a TV. The guy at the counter gives you an option. You can give him $500 for the TV or you can let him shoot you in the face and get the same exact TV. Do you honestly let him shoot you, knowing that it's going to be excruciating and that you have a 1 in 20 chance of dying? Or do you pay the $500? Or, if you don't have the $500, do you just wait to get the TV until you DO have the $500?

Depends on how badly I want the TV, and how brave I am. I'm no hero, and I'd definately consider being put in excrutiating temporary pain for $500. Yeah, it's bad, but it's only temporary. This TV will kick ass for YEARS to come!

Now, if I was truly heroic, and I had just stopped a bank robbery and saved the people inside with my magical power to survive getting shot in the face, and on my way home I cut through the park where there was a guy with a TV who was offering to give it to people who could be shot in the face, or for $500....I'd still say "Okay! Fire away random person!" And if he happened to have a kryptonite bullet that actually killed me, I would not be feeling heroic anymore.

The point is, there are easily available way to expose NO member of the party to risk. The fact that many players don't take those options (some don't even think of taking those options) is mostly based on metagame thinking about the consequences of setting off a trap (expenditure of resources and possible disruption in the flow of play) rather than in-character thinking (it will probably hurt, it may severely injure me and there's a possibility that I coudl die).

What does a hero do, send people to die in his place, or go to die in the place of others (knowing he's got the skills to survive where they don't)? Do I brave the unknown, or do I pay Little Jimmy the town cripple to go brave the unknown so I don't get hurt? Do I go explore dungeons for a McGuffin, or do I just bankroll some adventurers to do it for me? Do I fight the monster, or hide under the bed so the monster doesn't get me?

The characters, being heroes, don't choose the safest course of action. That's the point. Heroes survive not choosing the safest course of action because they're HEROES. You wouldn't, I wouldn't, even that military general wouldn't, but a hero....a hero would. No man in a book or a movie ever died from pulling a lever.

 

[Barak]

The use of spells for the pulling of lever/opening of doors that the rogue is 99% sure is untrapped is unrealistic. What the heck? Does the spellcasters only memorize spells that can do that, and rest every time they are out? Or does the party spend all their money on wands of Summon monsters?

With that out of the way.. If it's that obvious that using the 50' rope is -the- way to go to pull levers, wouldn't people trapping levers take that into consideration, and make their traps in consequence?

 

[ThirdWizard]

With that out of the way.. If it's that obvious that using the 50' rope is -the- way to go to pull levers, wouldn't people trapping levers take that into consideration, and make their traps in consequence?

I can see it now...

BBEG: Heh, those adventurers are so dead.
Trap Artisan: That'll be 45,000 gp please.
BBEG: Wow! Expensive. *hands over gold* It will definately kill intruders.
TA: Oh yeah! Unless they use rope to pull it or something.
BBEG: What???
TA: Oh you know, those adventurers, they use rope to pull levers.
BBEG: Surely you took that into consideration when making the trap?
TA: 'Course not. That wouldn't be fair.
BBEG: Not fair??
TA: Of course. Everyone knows that pulling it with a rope wouldn't kill you. That wouldn't be sporting. The point is to let the smart ones through.
BBEG: That's not really what I was going for.
TA: Sorry, its in the Union rules. What can you do?
BBEG: What can? GAH! *zap*
TA: *is a pile of dust*

 

[Barak]

Exactly. And it's not really that hard to take the rope into consideration. Just require some weight close to the lever in order for the lever to do whatever it does, trap or open the door. Sure, it would make it a lil easier to find, but since the master trapfinder didn't find it while taking 20, I'm sure it could handle a slight hit to the search DC.

 

[Ourph]

Military units do this every day. "Sir, Intelligence indicates that the area ahead has no land mines." And then you act on that knowledge. You do trust the information of the specialists, when in life-or-death situations.

If there some question about landmines in the area ahead (and obviously there is or intel wouldn't be checking) and I had the option of going around that area, through an area where there is absolutely no indication of landmines, I'd go around. Any smart military commander would make the same decision.

The characters, being heroes, don't choose the safest course of action. That's the point.

Your character's perception of himself as a hero and that heroes operate under different rules than normal people is a metagame consideration and is specifically related not only to the fact that you know you are playing a game but also to the fact that you have a certain set of preconceived notions about how the events of the game should play out.

 

[silentspace]

I can see it now...

BBEG: Heh, those adventurers are so dead.
Trap Artisan: That'll be 45,000 gp please.
BBEG: Wow! Expensive. *hands over gold* It will definately kill intruders.
TA: Oh yeah! Unless they use rope to pull it or something.
BBEG: What???
TA: Oh you know, those adventurers, they use rope to pull levers.
BBEG: Surely you took that into consideration when making the trap?
TA: 'Course not. That wouldn't be fair.
BBEG: Not fair??
TA: Of course. Everyone knows that pulling it with a rope wouldn't kill you. That wouldn't be sporting. The point is to let the smart ones through.
BBEG: That's not really what I was going for.
TA: Sorry, its in the Union rules. What can you do?
BBEG: What can? GAH! *zap*
TA: *is a pile of dust*

Trap's probably underpriced by quite a bit though...

 

[I'm A Banana]

If there some question about landmines in the area ahead (and obviously there is or intel wouldn't be checking) and I had the option of going around that area, through an area where there is absolutely no indication of landmines, I'd go around. Any smart military commander would make the same decision.

Ah, because even the cleverest soldier cannot survive an explosion...

But "Intelligence indicates there are no mines. The passage is safe." You'd still go around?

Your character's perception of himself as a hero and that heroes operate under different rules than normal people is a metagame consideration and is specifically related not only to the fact that you know you are playing a game but also to the fact that you have a certain set of preconceived notions about how the events of the game should play out.

No, my character's perception of himself as a hero is that Little Timmy the Village Cripple says "You're my hero!" And he slays dragons and kills fiends. And he was hired to get this McGuffin. And he can take a bullet wound in the face and survive. And not everyone in town can do that.

He probably also has a shiny cape, an ancient blade of legend...bards are singing about him in taverns as a hero. He knows he's a hero because evidence tells him he is.

 

[T. Foster]

No, my character's perception of himself as a hero is that Little Timmy the Village Cripple says "You're my hero!" And he slays dragons and kills fiends. And he was hired to get this McGuffin. And he can take a bullet wound in the face and survive. And not everyone in town can do that.

He probably also has a shiny cape, an ancient blade of legend...bards are singing about him in taverns as a hero. He knows he's a hero because evidence tells him he is.

Whereas my character doesn't see himself like that at all. He sees himself as more like Odysseus -- a guy who succeeds through cunning, trickery, and pragmatism, who outsmarts dragons and tricks fiends, who couldn't care less about Little Timmy the Village Cripple (unless he's got some valuable information to share), who's just as likely to keep the macguffin for himself as he is to return it to its "rightful" former-owner, and who intends never to find out wheter or not he can take a bullet wound in the face and survive. And because of that he'll still be alive at the end of the day, listening as all the other dead heroes are memorialized by the bards.

That's probably why I prefer to play True Neutral magic-users and barbarians rather than Lawful Good fighters and paladins (and would sooner stab myself with a pencil than play a cavalier).

 

[MarkB]

I can see it now...

BBEG: Heh, those adventurers are so dead.
Trap Artisan: That'll be 45,000 gp please.
BBEG: Wow! Expensive. *hands over gold* It will definately kill intruders.
TA: Oh yeah! Unless they use rope to pull it or something.
BBEG: What???
TA: Oh you know, those adventurers, they use rope to pull levers.
BBEG: Surely you took that into consideration when making the trap?
TA: 'Course not. That wouldn't be fair.
BBEG: Not fair??
TA: Of course. Everyone knows that pulling it with a rope wouldn't kill you. That wouldn't be sporting. The point is to let the smart ones through.
BBEG: That's not really what I was going for.
TA: Sorry, its in the Union rules. What can you do?
BBEG: What can? GAH! *zap*
TA: *is a pile of dust*

The really smart (and extravagant) BBEG adds a second Disintegrate effect to be triggered precisely 48 feet back up the corridor, because he knows adventurers always carry rope in 50-foot lengths.

 

[Bagpuss]

The really smart (and extravagant) BBEG adds a second Disintegrate effect to be triggered precisely 48 feet back up the corridor, because he knows adventurers always carry rope in 50-foot lengths.

And another at 38 feet because adventures often knot their rope for climbing which uses 10ft of the 50ft rope I believe.