Is this fair?

[Stalker0]

This begs another question; do the people who are asleep get Reflex saves? I know it's been asked before and, AFAIK, the technical answer is yes. Am I right?

The reason why is that saves are not just ability, they also include a measure of luck. And as most people will be going from a +x dex to a -5 dex, you have to be pretty lucky to make the save.

As to your main concern, I have no problem with the situation...just give your players every roll you possibly can.

2 listen checks when the assasins come by for teh person on watch (one as he's getting near, and one as he gets in position to study).

Then as the first death attack hits the person on watch, give everyone listen checks to wake up.

If they do, roll them into initiative, to give them the chance to go before the next death attack.

Also, you mentioned your party has action points? What do you allow them to do? If they can give bonuses to fort saves, encourage the players to use them. Or allow them to make the death effect go from death to -5 hp or something.

The best thing about action points imo is it allows a dm to include a "realistic" situation but at the same time gives the good guys that crazy luck that allows them to always survive when they realistically shouldn't

 

[The Souljourner]

Death attack the guy on guard, maybe he hears the guys, maybe he makes the fort save. Regardless, he makes enough noise for the rest of the party to roll a listen check DC 5 (not including -10 penalty for sleeping) if he's unarmored, DC 0 if he's armored. Since you're the DM, you should be rolling all listen checks anyway, so you can decide if someone hears the guy die (oh, look at that, the rogue wakes up to the familiar sound of a knife in someone's kidneys). That prevents a TPK.

I'd definitely suggest against scrolls of invisibility. One-use items, especially of spells like invisibility, really piss off PCs. Make them use their hide and move silently. And don't forget to roll listen checks for sleeping PCs, albeit with the -10. You never know, they might actually hear something if they roll well.

All you really need to prevent is a TPK. If one guys dies, it's not the end of the world. I've had characters die in very cheesy but perfectly by-the-story ways, and was fine with it. This isn't an instant death trap in some random dungeon with no connection to the story.

That being said, it really depends on your players. If any death is going to annoy them, go easy on them. But if they're good players, I think they'll understand that sometimes a PC just dies. Personally, I'd feel better about this kind of death than just randomly getting unlucky while fighting generic baddies in a dungeon.

-The Souljourner

 

[Nessin]

Now, Death Attack allows you to study a target for 3 rounds and, as long as they don't see you or know you're a threat, you can sneak attack them and, possibly, kill them.

If your'e really concerned about using Death Attack, then don't use it. Instead, do a basic backstab, and have the dagger coated in poison that slowly kills the player. Give them a fighting chance, but still have the element of "Oh crap, I'm screwed!"

 

[Belbarid]

So.... Knowing all this, is it unfair to have both of them, or just one, use their invisibility scrolls, sneak up to the outside of camp, study the person(s) on watch for 18 seconds (this is assuming the person(s) on watch fail their listen checks) and then sneak attack?

My PCs all have pretty good Fort saves but I can see that this could possibly lead to a TPK, even with high Fort saves and Action Points.

First off, let me say that I don't see much wrong with this scenario, assuming that the opposition is run fairly. I'm not impugning you, mind you, I'm just saying that if this assassin is lvl 20, then this is a bit over the top.

But let's back up a bit. How does this assassin know where the group is camping? There are three ideas that I can come up with off top my head.

1) They are being followed. In which case, they have a chance to notice this. Any group traveling the wilderness without someone to act as a guide/Survival Expert is begging for trouble.

2) They are in an area where there is a limited number of decent places to camp, based on the terrain. Clearings in heavy woods, for instance. In which case, any group with a shred of survival instinct would either bed down paranoid or, preferably, bed down somewhere else and live with the discomfort/inconvienience. In the first instance, the group can be easily found by process of elimination and knowledge of the terrain, but they should see this and take appropriate measures. The second instance results in a lot of tramping around looking for the group, which increaces their chance of knowing something is going on.

3) Scrying. I hate Scrying. The Will save will help, if the Scryer is of an equivilent level, but if there's multiple PC's, there's a bigger risk of the BDF (Big Dumb Fighter) blowing a save. Take my advice- our DM uses this ALL THE FREAKING TIME. It's to the point where it's just assumed that we are always being Scryed on. Anywhere. Use this level of NPC omnicience sparingly, and it's nice and dramatic. Use it often, and players might key your car on their way out.

What I'm getting at is that the scenario you outline is fine, but you seem to be taking it out of context. Your players have a chance of noticing the attack as it's happening, sure, but they should also have a chance of noticing the attack being set up.

And, personally, I've turned many "Hunt-And-Kills" into "Smash-And-Grabs" on the fly because the party just couldn't catch a break. On the other hand, I have no problem sticking it to a group that refuses to think. An encounter comes to mind where the PC's turned a peaceful negotiation with a dragon into an attempted dragonslaying. Some quick illusionary work turned a particularly low-damage attack from the BDF into somehting fatal-looking, and the dragon slumped over "dead". When the BDF went to (inevitably) collect a tooth, he was eviscerated by a remarkably healthy dragon. No Ressurection, either. This was 2nd Ed, and I ruled that a dragon's digestive tract doesn't leave behind enough to Ressurect.

 

[reveal]

As far as realism is concerned, as others have said you need to make allowances for the fact that we're playing a game. After all, "realistically" why send only two assassins? If the baddies want the PCs dead, the might as well send a whole squad of them. Double Death Attacks for every PC...

Oh there are more in the group. The assassins would just move up first to take out the "high rollers" and then the rest would move in.

 

[reveal]

But let's back up a bit. How does this assassin know where the group is camping? There are three ideas that I can come up with off top my head.

1) They are being followed. In which case, they have a chance to notice this. Any group traveling the wilderness without someone to act as a guide/Survival Expert is begging for trouble.

The assassins are only 6th level characters (Rog5/Asn1) so they are tough but not over the top.

On the way to the fort, the PCs were helping to escort a caravan of goods along with 22 low level guards. Bandits broke out of the woods and attacked. [Insert time loop story here]

Long story short - In the end, the PCs were able to ambush and kill the bandits. The bandits were only attacking because they were hungry, or so the PCs thought. What had actually happened was the group that was hired to kill the PCs hired the bandits to "test the waters" and see how tough the PCs actually were. BTW, the group knew where the PCs were going to be by Gathering Information within Sharn, which is where the caravan started from.

Anyway, so the group knew where the PCs were heading and they also knew how tough they were. The caravan now sits in the town two days out from the fort. The groups Doppleganger has infiltrated the town and asked around about the PCs whereabout. They planned and set the trap.

It's a crafty group, I tells ya.

 

[Belbarid]

Anyway, so the group knew where the PCs were heading and they also knew how tough they were. The caravan now sits in the town two days out from the fort. The groups Doppleganger has infiltrated the town and asked around about the PCs whereabout. They planned and set the trap.

It's a crafty group, I tells ya.

A couple possible loose ends, then, that players might pick up on.

First of all, it's *really* hard to ask around about someone without tipping your hand that that's what you're doing. It's possible, but much harder, and much less reliable. It involves getting people into conversations that you can subtly maneuver to get the person to reveal what you want- if he knows in the first place. Point is, if all the Doppleganger did was the equivilent of passing around a wanted posted asking "Have you seen these people", then some enterprising guy might realize that the party might be willing to shed some coin for this information.

Secondly, if someone hired the Bandits, setting them up to get killed, then it's possible that this other group has an enemy that might be able to tip off the party.

All in all, though, this isn't something I'd see as unfair. There are plenty of ways that, through smart thinking or luck, the group won't be totally blindsided by an assassin's attack.

 

[Shin Okada]

I think that encounter is OK as long as you give PCs reasonable chance (when they have appropriate skills) to notice the assassins.

As Belbarid said, give them chance to notice the following trackers. Actually, it is very difficult for assassins to track PCs while unnoticed. Unless they have Swift Tracker ability (like 8th+ rangers) they suffer -5 penalty to the check or their speed is halved. Also, if they try to hide, their speed is halved again.

When assassins attack, PCs still have good chance to notice. Usually, PCs have at least one watch when camp. Even if assassins are invisible, they can make a listen check and a spot check (remember DC 20 spot check allow them to notice "something is there").

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Oh there are more in the group. The assassins would just move up first to take out the "high rollers" and then the rest would move in.

You're missing my point. If the enemy group has the resources, it's more sensible that all the "rest" be assassins. That they all have scrolls of invisibility. That they all use Death Attacks in the surprise round.

Only having two assassins is already less effective than the smart villain group is capable of. Might as well only have one assassin, and not worry about a TPK and unhappy players.

 

[brehobit]

Another option, esp if you don't roll dice in front of the players, is to have one of the assassins "fail" a move silently roll. A guard hears something. Depending on his reaction the assassins either freeze in place and wait, attack anyways, or run away (coming back later).

I like the other methods folks mentioned (say a bandit who got hosed comes to the party or someone else warns the party they are being asked after), but if those won't work, the blown roll is enough to give them a chance. If the baddies have to run away once, at least the party knows someone is after them.

Also, the assassins are unlikely to want to die themselves. Even after killing two folks, they might feel like they would die in the middle of the party. Their tactics should reflect this, and might lead you into ways that the big PC doesn't die.