Is this fair?

[reveal]

Out of curiosity, how did they hire a Phase Spider?

The leader of the group, Dorath, was, at one point long ago, captured by mind flayers while adventuring. The phase spider was also a prisoner and both were tortured by the flayers. After a while, the phase spider found a way to escape. He freed Dorath and they both fled. They've been companions since then.

BTW, if this sounds familiar to anyone, it's the "An Eye for an Eye" sidequest written by Monte Cook.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Running this against my players would almost certainly be a TPK. But, that's a combonation of me running enemies intelligently (especially professional assassins) and my players not pimping out their characters. I cannot imagine them surviving. Well... maybe the fastest one...

One piece of advice, if you don't want them dying instantly from the assassins death attacks then don't use them. If you don't mind them dying from the death attacks then use them. Dice are fickle and its usually a bad idea to assume that they will pass, since a failure will leave you in a situation you never planned on being in.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The phase spider would be a good encounter by itself at night... or a a few of them together better yet. that would make them soil there armor I'm sure. Just have it phase in to attack the guard on duty the same round that a few more phase in to attack the rest of the group. It is a move equivlent action to use the ability and would give the lookout the chance to make noise so the rest of the group could wake up and not have to all suffer from the coup de grac attacks.

Actually, it's a free action to phase in, and a move action (which can be done alongside a normal move, just like drawing a weapon) to phase out.

A phase spider can very, very easily phase in next to something sleeping and immediately administer a CDG - which also automatically inflicts its poison, which I brought up above.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Actually, it's a free action to phase in, and a move action (which can be done alongside a normal move, just like drawing a weapon) to phase out.

A phase spider can very, very easily phase in next to something sleeping and immediately administer a CDG - which also automatically inflicts its poison, which I brought up above.

The evil part is that since they're inside the tents, they might not realize it until everyone sleeping is dead, depending on Listen checks, and phase spiders are really quiet.

I usually play them as picking off stragglers. They're insanely good at hit and run tactics. Never used them on sleeping PCs, though... I'm not that evil.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Out of curiousity, I thought I'd plug this information into Wulf Ratbanes Encounter EL calculator (the one which was being given away on GMs day) since it turns out to be pretty good at predicting outcomes when I've used it before.

Here is a breakdown of the group sent to kill PCs:

Human Ftr7
Human Rog5/Asn1
Half-Elf Rog5/Asn1
Elf Sor6
Doppleganger Rog3
Phase Spider CR5

I can't remember the ECL for a doppleganger, so I assumed +3.

Overall, this group is an EL17 in Wulfs terms.

The PCs are:

Warforged Wiz1/Ftr5/Urban Ranger1/Devoted Defender1
Warforged Rog4/Psion3/Extreme Explorer1
Human Clr8
Human Wiz7/Human Paragon1
Shifter Urban Ranger6/Master Inquisitve2

The PC's work out as EL 18

So the expectation would be that the PCs would find this a *very difficult* encounter, using up 68% of their resources and with a 65% chance of them surviving.

In an open combat.

If the assassins get an optimum surprise situation (surprise round, most of enemies are sleeping and ill-prepared) then I think the party is likely to get very badly hurt.

Cheers

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Doppelgangers get a +4 LA.

I'm not sure it changes the answer much, however.

I'm glad Wulf's numbers support my earlier position.

 

[Darkness]

So the expectation would be that the PCs would find this a *very difficult* encounter, using up 68% of their resources and with a 65% chance of them surviving.

By the way, does Wulf's system account for 32-point point-buy and action points? Also, equipment - NPC equipment is usually worse than PC.

If it accounts for all that, or you factored it in, I salute it/you.

A doppleganger Rog 3 is ECL 11, BTW. (4 HD + 4 LA + 3 class levels)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

By the way, does Wulf's system account for 32-point point-buy and action points?

Why should it account for action points?

Action points should not be considered in the calculation of "How tough are my PCs?" because they are not "standard equipment." They allow a PC to alter a limited number of rolls - and for 8th-level PCs, they've got 9?, assuming they haven't used any since they leveled.

Note that action points allow you to add the results of a single d6 roll to your d20 roll. They are far from "sure things."*

Moreover, any DM who is designing something with the idea of, "My PCs should be forced to use X % of the action points in this conflict," is missing the point, IMNSHO.

Action points should be used as a way to accomplish something spectacular, to change a narrow miss into a hit, to make a barely-failed saving throw - they should not be treated as just another expendable resource, or they are no longer really "action points."

* - Note that the Extreme Explorer PrC has slightly more than the baseline as a class feature.

 

[Plane Sailing]

By the way, does Wulf's system account for 32-point point-buy and action points? Also, equipment - NPC equipment is usually worse than PC.

If it accounts for all that, or you factored it in, I salute it/you.

A doppleganger Rog 3 is ECL 11, BTW. (4 HD + 4 LA + 3 class levels)

The Grim Tales book is more detailed and does factor in higher attributes, it might even include action points since the setting has them... but that is in my baby daughters bedroom at the moment, so I just went with the plain old calculator he made available on GM day.

If I give +0.5CR to each party member for the better attributes, and up the doppleganger to ECL 11, the results come out worse.

It is still a *very difficult* encounter, but expected resource usage is up to 84% and party survival down to 58%...

 

[Darkness]

It is still a *very difficult* encounter, but expected resource usage is up to 84% and party survival down to 58%...

Very nice. I'd have to compare the results of this system to actual play to really evaluate its usefulness, but it's definitely very interesting.

Out of interest, does it say why it bases its calculations on ECL rather than CR?