• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

is this GM bad or am i just a wuss?

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
Not plain, nor simple. I see a lot of "badwrongfun" in your post about how a DM 'should' run a game. Hate to break this to you, but there isn't ONETRUEWAYTODM.

I, for instance, would be curious to hear the DM's side of things as I find a lot of what he did, even from the perspective of the annoyed player, something I might enjoy as a player.


If one is DMing, and one knows that they have a group of inexperienced players, that DM should be able to realize after the first or even second failed campaign that something is not working. If the DM wants the players to play at the DM's normal preferred style of play, the DM has to work with the players to help them grasp the campaign and game concepts and bring them up to speed.

Dropping inexperienced players into a scenario without giving adequate informtaion to surroundings or placing hints of possible actions in the verbiage of description of the scenario leads to frustrated players that walk away from the game. After a few sessions of guiding them through the basics and weening them off handholding, they will begin to know what kind of questions to ask in the DM's scenarios, as they will find that the information they normally get missing. This builds a pattern of players asking for more and more detail of thier surroundings and brings them up to a level that it appears this particular DM runs his campaign at.

It may very well be a fun gaming style for some experienced players, but it is not a good one for nuturing and retaining beginners, as evidenced by the player coming here for advice with his frustrations.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Celebrim

Legend
I hate to focus on what the DM is doing wrong, because it seems he's doing a lot of things right. But, this is what I see:

a) He's not nurturing his players. He's got a 'sink or swim' attitude combined with a propensity to tease (or insult?) his players when they 'sink'. Teasing and gently ribbing your players may work well after they've learned to trust you and when they usually feel compotent to face your challenges, but its a very bad idea otherwise.

b) He's guilty of forcing players to rely solely on player knowledge, and not character knowledge. Presumably the players characters have some knowledge of the surrounding world, it's climate, it's religion, it's political divisions, and history. It's great to have campaign level secrets, but those should be limited to things people don't commonly know to be true. He's trying to elevate every little aspect of how his world works to the level of a campaign secret, and then play 'gotcha' with the players when they fail to understand how a world that exists only in his mind works. That's one of the most common novice DM flaws, and sadly its a flaw that is most common in DMs with great imaginations and lots of potential to be really entertaining DMs. They love their own ideas too well and they misjudge not how fun it is to be surprised, but exactly what surprises they should be springing and when. The 'Sixth Sense' is a good example of how and when you should hit people in a story with the twist. It has to be fair, and it has to have been properly led up to.

c) It's great to throw the players into challenges that are over their head, or which seem over the players heads (but aren't). The former teaches the player to think creatively, and the latter gives the player a sense that he's part of a shining moment of awesomeness when he wins 'despite the odds'. But you also have to put the players in situations where the odds are clearly in their favor from time to time, and you even need occasional situations where the foes are just mooks and pushovers that the characters can shine against by completely dominating. I think he's got a bit too much ego invested in his situations. It's easy for a DM to dominate the PC's and enjoyment of dominating the PC's should be something every DM should guard himself against. Beware any desire to 'show off' to them doesn't prioritize your enjoyment over theirs.

d) The strangest situation was the 'inevitable' execution the PC's fell into. I wonder if from the DM's perspective if it was nearly so 'inevitable'. The reason this story is so odd is that in the same account he's previously provided a cave that the players could shelter from giants, and a dungeon which could be easily escaped from. He's not a DM who seems unwilling to give the players an escape clause. I'd love to know what was on the DM's mind at the time. Did he feel they'd been so stupid that they'd earned a three strikes and you are out rule? Was he dragging the execution scene out for hours in hopes that the players would pick up on some obvious ways to escape that they never picked up on? Where the players actually continually thwarting his intentions by, for example, insulting and antagonizing their jailors or, so that the DM's ability to concieve of leniency was continually being thwarted? From what the player has said, it just seems wierd how this worked out.

e) He's not describing the world in a way that is really useful to the players. Or as pemerton put it, there seems to be a lot of poor scene framing going on. While I don't agree with some assessments that the scenes are bad, I do agree that they aren't being framed correctly to make the players choices meaningful. This is why I'm very interested in the question of whether the DM prepares a lot of notes. If he doesn't, then the answer to why the scenes are being framed poorly is immediate - he's making this up on the fly and so hasn't invested much time thinking about the implications of his choices (notes IME almost always empower the players). If he does prepare notes, then the problem is not so much railroad (as pemerton suggests) but rather a rowboat world. The players can 'go anywhere they want', but have no real ability to utilize that freedom because they lack both a map and an accomplishable goal. Frequent campaign crashes because the players didn't know how or where to row the boat are typical of many sandbox purist games. But yeah, if there are no notes, then we are effectively on rails with a very harsh conductor.
 
Last edited:

Janx

Hero
has it been established how old everybody in this group was?

I'm going to guess, that they are younger,probably <20.


I am a bit puzzled by those who seriously say the OP's game sounds like fun. Assuming everything literally happened like the OP said (well, I hope a few things were embellished), the faults the GM made have already been documented. I don't think railroading the PCs into an execution for lack of a city pass is good fun.

Obviously, in reality, there's likely some differences in what really happened and how the OP described it, especially given the OP's other vernaculars.

Ultimately though, it's really simple.

The players are newbies, and they did not feel like the DM helped newbies get used to the game

Thus, the players did not have fun with this GM's style.

Therefore, find a new GM.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Therefore, find a new GM.

In many threads if this sort, this seems to be the stock answer to every table issue. If the players are a problem, find a new player. The advice as offered as a panacea even to groups who are friends. I wonder whether or not more productive advice would simply be, "Don't play RPGs". However, if they are to play RPG's, usually 'find a new player' isn't a good answer.

In my experience, "find a new GM" is an even more unrealistic answer. GMs are much rarer than players, escially after you've hit 18. "Find a new GM", is often the same as saying, "Don't play RPGs." Even if you could find a replacement willing to do the work, there is little gaurantee that you aren't trading one set of problems for another one.
 

Janx

Hero
In many threads if this sort, this seems to be the stock answer to every table issue. If the players are a problem, find a new player. The advice as offered as a panacea even to groups who are friends. I wonder whether or not more productive advice would simply be, "Don't play RPGs". However, if they are to play RPG's, usually 'find a new player' isn't a good answer.

In my experience, "find a new GM" is an even more unrealistic answer. GMs are much rarer than players, escially after you've hit 18. "Find a new GM", is often the same as saying, "Don't play RPGs." Even if you could find a replacement willing to do the work, there is little gaurantee that you aren't trading one set of problems for another one.

You are correct. It is the same as my dislike of the stock answer of "you're using the wrong system, play XYZ instead"

The probability is, that the GM won't change his ways. One could hope the OP could have the "Difficult Conversation" (and there's a script for that) and effect a change, but most people won't.

A more practical solution is for the OP to learn how to GM "properly" and do it himself. The current GM holds a monopoly for his service, and can get away with bad behavior.

By taking over as DM, he learns to not repeat the problem behavior, and learns respect for the work involved.
 

epicbob

Explorer
Like I said in a previous post, I actually AM trying my hand at DMing.

Although it wasn't really in opposition to the DM I'm talking about.

In my search for my own copy of the Player's Handbook, I was offered the DM/Monster/Player's Handbook kit for 40$. Considering I was expecting to pay that for just one of them, I didn't really hesitate :p

So I figured, hey, I have all 3 books. Wouldn't hurt to put them to use. So I did. From what I can tell, the players like the way I run the game in spite of my inexperience.

edit : I got a reply from the DM about my Campaign 101 suggestion. While he won't do that, he says the current campaign should be closer to our skill level in difficulty (I must admit the Goblin base we just went through was generally manageable in spite of a few close calls). He also says that all we really need is to ignore our experience from typical console RPGs and search every nook and cranny of what we explore (this could take a while).

I guess time will tell if he's right.
 
Last edited:

Pentius

First Post
Not plain, nor simple. I see a lot of "badwrongfun" in your post about how a DM 'should' run a game. Hate to break this to you, but there isn't ONETRUEWAYTODM.

I, for instance, would be curious to hear the DM's side of things as I find a lot of what he did, even from the perspective of the annoyed player, something I might enjoy as a player.

Actually, the DM should(no quote marks, should) be running the game in such a way as to make the experience as fun as he can for everyone involved. Whether or not players who aren't in that game would enjoy his technique doesn't matter, because he isn't DMing for those players.
 

pemerton

Legend
Celebrim, your posts in this thread are interesting. You seem to have a better handle on what the GM might have been trying to achieve than I do - my response, obviously, was closer to Rune's upthread, in that I found it hard to see a worthwhile goal in what was described. Your interpretation of it has helped with that, so thanks.

I just wanted to follow up on this:

The strangest situation was the 'inevitable' execution the PC's fell into. I wonder if from the DM's perspective if it was nearly so 'inevitable'.

<snip>

Was he dragging the execution scene out for hours in hopes that the players would pick up on some obvious ways to escape that they never picked up on? Where the players actually continually thwarting his intentions by, for example, insulting and antagonizing their jailors or, so that the DM's ability to concieve of leniency was continually being thwarted?

<snip>

the problem is not so much railroad (as pemerton suggests) but rather a rowboat world.
I see railroading rather than "rowboating", because I see a GM who drags things out waiting for the players to stop thwarting his intentions as railroading. In making this judgement, it's obvious that I'm not allowing the GM to plead "but that's just how the gameworld is" - because I see the gameworld as being a means to the end of play, not an end in itself.

Am I right in thinking that your diagnosis of "rowboating", and also your more sympathetic interpretation of what the GM is trying to do, is based on a different way of thinking about the role of the gameworld?
 

epicbob

Explorer
In the dragged-out jail sequence, I said in a previous post that we were manacled and had ice cold water thrown on us to keep us numbed. Plus a corrupted Dwarven official who assumed we were enemies of the country.

The way I see it, he was making it clear we WEREN'T getting out of there.
 

FireLance

Legend
He also says that all we really need is to ignore our experience from typical console RPGs and search every nook and cranny of what we explore (this could take a while).
:-S You know, there's a reason why most modern console RPGs did away with the "pixelbitching" occasionally found in early-generation CRPGs.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top