Is this really CR 16?

[Jack Simth]

I started applying a few Core templates to a Core Creature - starting with a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion (CR 12), adding the Fiendish template (+2 CR), and ending with the Half-Dragon template (+2 CR), for a total official CR of 16; is this actually right, though?

Colossal Dragon
40d10+160 (380)
Initiative: +3
BAB/Grapple: +30/+62
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), Fly 100 (average)
AC: 30 (-8 Size, -1 Dex, +29 Natural), Touch 1, Flat-footed 30
Attack: Claw + 38 Melee (2d8+16)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +38 Melee (2d8+16), Bite +36 Melee (4d6+8), and Sting +36 Melee (2d8+8 plus poison)
Size/Reach: 40 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+16, Improved Grab, Poison, Breath Weapon, Smite Good 1/day (+20 damage)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., Low-light Vision, Immunity to Sleep and Paralysis effects, SR 25, Damage Resistance 10/Magic, Resistance to Fire and Cold 10, Immunity to Electricity
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +14, Will +15
Stats: Str 43, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +63, Hide +31, Spot +47
Feats: (14): Blind Fight, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Hover, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Wingover
Environment: Warm Deserts
Organization: Solitarty
Challenge Rating: 16
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items

Constrict (Ex): A monstrous scorpion deals automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a monstrous scorpion must hit with a claw attack. A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better.

Poison (Ex): DC 34, 1d10 Con primary, 1d10 Con secondary

Breath Weapon: 60-foot Line of Lightning, 6d8 reflex DC 34 half, usable once per day

With it's Int of 5, and the six points per HD of the half-dragon, it gets three skill points per level - which is fine, as it has three skills. Likewise, it suddenly picks up fourteen feats. Is this monster actually CR 16?

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, colossal monstrous scorpion (as well as other bigger vermin's) has very strong attacks and big total HPs for it's CR. It is basically countered by the fact that their existence is usually obvious from afar and they do not have intelligence to make clever tactical decisions.

But the actual capability as a combatant may drastically changes when you apply certain templates, especially multiple of them. So, you should adjudicate the resulted creature's CR by yourself, not by simple calculation.

Still, IMHO, CR 16 is about right for this critter. Compare it to true blue dragons. In regard to unmodified melee attacks, total HPs and SR, that scorpion is nearly as powerful as CR 18 old blue dragon or CR 19 very old blue dragon. But it's AC is less than that of CR 16 mature adult blue dragon. And it does not have various abilities of true dragons. It's breath weapon is almost useless for a CR 16 monster. And it cannot cast spells (spells may largely augment both offense and defense of a dragon). And even though it is not a non-intelligent vermin anymore, it is still much less clever than true dragons.

 

[Runestar]

The fun really comes when you find some way to slap on the half-fiend template. Blasphemy at caster lv40, anyone?

 

[Shin Okada]

The fun really comes when you find some way to slap on the half-fiend template. Blasphemy at caster lv40, anyone?

I am planning to conclude the current 3.5e campaign with Bastion of Broken Souls. But due to the rule change of Blasphemy, I gave up applying half-fiend template to the BBEG. A sane DM should not apply that template to monsters with much higher HDs than it's CR. Or at least, replace Blasphemy with some other spell of the same level and such.

 

[frankthedm]

The fun really comes when you find some way to slap on the half-fiend template. Blasphemy at caster lv40, anyone?

That template got an INT requirement in 3.5.

 

[Runestar]

That template got an INT requirement in 3.5.

The fiendish scorpion gets 5int with the half-dragon template, so it should qualify, since you only need 4.

Not a bad deal overall. While an int score causes it to lose its immunity to mental effects, it grants it 14 extra feats. I am getting shivers along my spine thinking of how to optimize its feat selection...

 

[Simm]

Wouldn't it use d8s for hit dice vermin -> dragon (d12) -> outsider (d8)

 

[Kishin]

n.

Still, IMHO, CR 16 is about right for this critter. Compare it to true blue dragons. In regard to unmodified melee attacks, total HPs and SR, that scorpion is nearly as powerful as CR 18 old blue dragon or CR 19 very old blue dragon. But it's AC is less than that of CR 16 mature adult blue dragon. And it does not have various abilities of true dragons. It's breath weapon is almost useless for a CR 16 monster. And it cannot cast spells (spells may largely augment both offense and defense of a dragon). And even though it is not a non-intelligent vermin anymore, it is still much less clever than true dragons.

Comparing anything to a dragon is a pretty bad idea, since dragons are horrendously under CRed.

That scorpion has two major threats: Its poison (Which will demolish classes with weak Fort saves, likely one shotting them, and even have a high likelihood of success against classes with decent Fort saves unless they've significantly buffed themsleves with cloaks of resistance and high CON scores.) and its grapple (Which, if your party is like mine, will be wholly negated by Freedom of Movement). 380 HP is also pretty low for a creature that will be encountered solo by a 16th level party.

A lot depends on the party, I suppose. I play with players who tend to maximize their builds pretty effectively, and I feel like they'd chew it up quickly. However, it does have very near save or die potential, given the luck of the roll on its poison.

 

[Shin Okada]

Comparing anything to a dragon is a pretty bad idea, since dragons are horrendously under CRed.

Well, true dragons tend to be stronger than many other unmodified monsters of the same CR in MM. But maybe not so stronger than monsters of the same CR in various other WotC supplements. And both PCs and Monsters can be upgraded by using various build-options and equipments. In my current campaign, which started with 5th-level PCs and now they are at 13th-level, PCs already slew 10 true dragons and 1 corpse true dragon. And those dragons seemed to be appropriate challenge for their CRs. FYI, non of the current PCs have dragon bane melee weapons. And only one character (Ranger/Scout) has ability particularly aimed against dragons (favored enemy).

A lot depends on the party, I suppose. I play with players who tend to maximize their builds pretty effectively, and I feel like they'd chew it up quickly. However, it does have very near save or die potential, given the luck of the roll on its poison.

As you have mentioned, grapple will be negated by either Freedom of Movement or teleportation spells and items (including 4th-level spell Dimension Door). Most teleportation spells have only verbal component. So spellcasters tend to escape from grapple easily.

And most level 11+ parties use Heroes' Feast every morning. So poisons and fear effects are almost useless at that level unless the DM throw some effective de-buffer or let critters raid night camp.

As this is a CR 16 critter, we can safely assume that PCs have similar countermeasures.

 

[frankthedm]

That scorpion has two major threats: Its poison (Which will demolish classes with weak Fort saves, likely one shotting them, and even have a high likelihood of success against classes with decent Fort saves unless they've significantly buffed themselves with cloaks of resistance and high CON scores.) and its grapple (Which, if your party is like mine, will be wholly negated by Freedom of Movement). 380 HP is also pretty low for a creature that will be encountered solo by a 16th level party.

Heroes Feast negates all poison.