Is Turning Undead too powerful

[Uller]

Hi All,

Long time no see.

Last night we only had half our group plus a new player so I decided to run a Halloween themed game. I decide to go for a "Blair Witch" feel. I gave them a hook (a monster raiding flocks of sheep in a nearby village...300gp to take care of it). On the way, they were tricked into disturbing a graveyard haunted by a witch (a Green Hag) and a pack of 15 ghouls). This freed the witch. The party destroyed the monsters at the village. On their way home, the witch began directing the ghouls to attack them. They had to fight off wave after wave of them throughout the night. The witch used her invisibility to stay out of sight, Dancing Lights to direct the ghouls to where the party was and ghost sound to keep the PCs confused. Occasionally she'd come in close and use her weakness ability to sap the strenght of the party...all and all it was very cool.

The party consisted of the following:

Rog1/Wiz4
Bar1/Sor4
Clr5 (played by the new player)
Pal3 (NPC run by me)

I added the Paladin to the party to give them at least a little bit of undead turning. I had made him before I knew there would be a cleric in the party (I worked out well because at one point EVERYONE was paralyzed except the Paladin and he managed to turn the ghouls to save them).

Things went really well at first because the new player didn't quite realize the usefulness of turning. He'd usually cast a spell in the first round and THEN try to turn the ghouls. But eventually he realized that he only needed to roll a 4+ to turn most or all of the ghouls. By the rules (they "flee by the fastest means available for 10 rounds") a turned ghoul is out of the fight for 20 rounds...that is pretty much out of the fight.

This cleric had an 11 Charisma. Yet he could turn usually 3 or 4 ghouls with impunity(average of 12 HD per successful turning attempt). I'm thinking either the Turning Check Result table should be modified a bit to make turning undead a bit more difficult, or (better still) turning effect should simply require the cleric maintain concentration and merely keep them at bay (maybe 30 feet away) from the cleric. I don't want to stip turning ability completely...but I want to make it so that a successful turn attempt doesn't remove turned undead from the fight completely. So I'm open to ideas if anyone has any.

In the end it worked out pretty well. Without the cleric, they would have ended up having to fight for survival and flee the woods (and would have been lucky if all of them survived). With the cleric (and the wizard's See Invisibilty spell combined with the Barbarian's True Strike), they ended up driving off the ghouls and badly wounding the witch. So they felt confident enough to actually seek out her lair and killed her the next day.

My concern is that without a cleric, Undead can be too tough for a party. With a cleric, they are too weak unless they can keep attacking over and over until the cleric is out of turning ability.

 

[ElvishBard]

I just thought you might like to know paladins can't turn undead till they reach 4th level.

From the SRD:
Turn Undead (Su):When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

But as long as everyone had fun feel free to ignore the rules. I have nothing really useful to say as my players never play a cleric .

 

[Crothian]

of course turning undea dis too powerful.

 

[Sir Brennen]

The problem with Turning Undead is it can completely change the outcome of an encounter... or not. It's risky and unpredicitable, and unlike any other mechanic in the 3.x system. Your cleric obviously figured out how to make extremely effecitive use of the ability for the scenario you presented, but throwing in a slightly higher CR undead with Turn Resistance, and suddenly the ability might be completely useless.

Sean K Reynolds has a good article on the topic.

Unearthed Arcana has a couple of turn undead variants, if you want to simply alter the ability. I also have a variant I use for my campaign here. Both of these focus on causing damage to undead rather than making then run away.

Also note, the challenge rating for Undead isn't balanced for the Turn Undead class feature - so techinically, you could remove the Turn Undead class feature altogether, and undead encounters would remain appropriately challenging.

 

[Sadrik]

I think clerics are bad design, because they attempt to get players to play them by making them really powerful (partial BAB, full spell progression, 2 good saves, armor, etc.) Nobody wants to play the character to get the game to work (healing battery). So they pumped them up. I think every class should have its own balanced merits without the game *needing* it, but that is a design choice. Most people buy into that design concept so its really not a problem.

The other major problem I have with the cleric is the turn ability, what the op posted this thread for. It almost completely negates one group of monsters. (And very cool set of monsters at that!) To fix turning I think the moster should get a save somehow.

The other problem with the ability is that at first level you get all of your turns per day at once. I would institute that they get 1 turn attempt every odd level, period. Rather than 3 + CHA mod at firtst level. This way at high level they have more and at low level they have fewer per day. It would also actually give a reason early on to take the extra turn feat.

All the following abilities spend a turn attempt:

Positive Energy Abilities
Turn Undead
Create a 10' cone (+10' more per turn attempt they spend) that makes the undead flee that are within the area for 1 minute. The Will save to negate is 10 + half the level of the cleric + CHA mod.

Ward Undead
Create a 10' radius sphere (+10' more per turn attempt they spend?), It has a 1 minute duration, and every round that the undead are in the area they need to make a Will save or leave the area. The Will save to ignore the area is 10 + half the level of the cleric + CHA mod.

Destroy Undead
Create a 10' cone (+10' more per turn attempt they spend) that destroys undead instanttaneous effect. The Fort save to negate is the level of the cleric + CHA mod.

Negative Energy Abilities
Rebuke Undead
Create a 10' cone (+10' more per turn attempt they spend) that makes the undead cower that are within the area for 1 minute. The Will save to negate is 10 + half the level of the cleric + CHA mod.

Command Undead
Target 1 undead per turn attempt spent and attempt to make them come under your mental control. The range is short. The Will save to negate is the level of the cleric + CHA mod. A maximum number of undead equal to the clerics level can be commanded.

Dispel Turn Undead
Target 1 undead per level of the cleric to negate the effects of turn undead, rebuke undead, command undead, or bolster undead. To get rid of the ward undead ability the two clerics most make opposed cha + level rolls.

Bolter Undead
Target 1 undead per level of the cleric to give the undead +4 to their saves against turn effects. Duration 1 minute.

 

[mirivor]

I think clerics are bad design, because they attempt to get players to play them by making them really powerful (partial BAB, full spell progression, 2 good saves, armor, etc.) Nobody wants to play the character to get the game to work (healing battery). So they pumped them up. I think every class should have its own balanced merits without the game *needing* it

Good gravy! Finally someone else has put into words what I always foam at the mouth about when someone says "cleric"! Well said! One of the most glaring problems with the core rules, IMO!

As for turning, try out the alternate rules in Unearthed Arcana. They actually aren't all that bad... it becomes a personal contest between the cleric and his target, and takes hit dice and other factors into account.

Later!

 

[Uller]

I just thought you might like to know paladins can't turn undead till they reach 4th level.

From the SRD:
Turn Undead (Su):When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

But as long as everyone had fun feel free to ignore the rules. I have nothing really useful to say as my players never play a cleric .

Just to clarify: we're playing 3.0 (with some 3.5 stuff thrown in as we find it useful). 3.0 Paladins turn undead as 2 levels lower than a cleric (beginning at 3rd level).

Also, telling people they ignore the rules when you think they've made a mistake is usually bad form. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it can easily be interpretted as being pretentious.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Turning Undead is usually useless except at low levels (compare undead HD with CR).

That encounter is likely to be the only one where turning undead was useful in the entire campaign.

Geoff.

 

[Crothian]

Turning Undead is usually useless except at low levels (compare undead HD with CR).

That's only becasue clerics can turn. So, since that made encounters to easy they had to higher the HD of undead verse CR to make it an actual challenge

 

[Uller]

That's only becasue clerics can turn. So, since that made encounters to easy they had to higher the HD of undead verse CR to make it an actual challenge

Actually Geoff has a point. It very well may be the only encounter (or series of encounters) where turning undead is useful. I don't use undead too much really. Undead are really cool monsters, IMO...but like all cool monsters, over use takes away the fun because then they just become old hat. So it may be awhile before they get used again.

That's one of the reasons I avoid too many house rules concerning them...because I don't use them enough to really play test the house rules (or even remember them when I need them). Right now the only house rule I have for undead is that paralyzed characters cannot be coup de graced (I look at paralysis from ghouls or a hold person spell more of a state of panic...the character can't act, but he isn't completely helpless either. He's not totaly unable to move) and Energy Drain is _never_ permanent...I hate taking levels away from my PCs. Those levels are earned and we play so rarely it is hard to earn them back.