Is Vow of Poverty broken?

[billd91]

Allow me to rephrase:

Would it be equally silly to expect a paladin (on an exactly similar quest for his church) to refrain from torturing people to get information on where that item is, assuming that that is the "only" way to get the item?

Again, I notice that you've put the only in quotes. Presumably, you don't really mean that's the only way to get the information and in most D&D games, that's true. Various charms and compulsions and divinations get you there without torture. So, no, it's not silly at all.

But we are talking about very different issues here. One, torture, is notoriously unreliable even when used and there is more reliable magic available in general. The other is using a quest item that, given the VoP, is not going to remain in the PC's possession.

 

[Artoomis]

... The other is using a quest item that, given the VoP, is not going to remain in the PC's possession.

And, again, even using a magic item is against the vow.

Of course a DM can change the vow or decide that it's okay to break it, if that's how he wants to play it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My point was more like:

Day 1

Deity: "Sir Reginald, my most faithful one...I call upon you to deliver Evilsbane unto the city of McGuffin-on-the-River, to deliver that, my holiest city, from the clutches of the demon horde that e'en now descendeth upon it."

Sir R: "Your will be done, oh Shining One."

Later that adventure:

Sir R: "Oh Shining One, I have fetched Evilsbane unto McGuffin-on-the-River, only to find thy knights all slain, your priests in hiding- to whom shall I deliver this blade?"

Deity: "Slain? Hiding? Then its up to you, Sir Reginald- Kill Them Demons but GOOOD!"

Sir R: "But my Vow to you?"

Deity: "Screw the freakin' Vow! Kill the M*****R-F*****G Demons about to torch my favorite place on your whole Fuh....miser...doggone planet!"

Later Still:

Deity : "Well done my son...you have saved my city. By the way, you violated your Vow of Poverty, so I'm stripping you of all the abilities you gained from your vow to me."

Sir R: "WTF?! You told me...you...you double-talking sonofa..."

Deity: "ZAAAAAAAP!"

Hardly seems right, does it?

 

[Particle_Man]

Obvious answer:

"I will not break my Vow of Poverty, oh Deity. Since we are talking right now, you can send in a Solar to take this weapon and use it to kick butt, or you can watch your favorite city fall. I will use my mighty Karate chops in thy name, instead."

 

[Nifft]

Good is about doing the right thing, for the right reasons (and by this I mean objective, story-book Good, not the stuff we have here in our grey-to-midnight real world).

Good is not about taking shortcuts.

Good does not want to hear "the ends required the means".

Good will not bow to pragmatism.

Good is granted miracles.

If you can't find a clever way to keep your Vow and finish the darn story arc, it's your own darn problem. Or it's your DM's problem. Either way, it's not a problem with the Vow.

-- N

PS: Think of it this way: what if a Cleric of Lathander / Pelor / The Silver Flame was stuck in a graveyard with a Rod of Undead Legion Control, while an army of goblins attacked his favorite holy city? Would the nice Cleric's deity understand if the Cleric raised a legion of damned and screaming souls to unholy servitude just this one time?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Particle_Man your answer goes DIRECTLY back to my comment about DM's forcing the PC into a corner of "use a magic item or everyone dies." It should not be done, but if it is, he shouldn't penalize the PC & player.

You are absolutely right that if the Ascetic is in direct contact with his god, he is well within his rights to say "Take this cup from mine hands." and send another emmisary to do the job. (Of course, the person who originally posted the scenario said that Evilsbane could only be used by a Paladin of the faith- presumably, that will not be a Solar or any other celestial angel-esque NPC.)

But, if the divine personage (as played by the DM), to whom the vow is given, demands the Ascetic PC use Evilsbane, then he's way off base in penalizing the PC for following the direct orders of his god.

Consider Abraham, ordered by God to slay his only son. Abraham had his son on the altar, the knife upraised when God revealed unto Abraham a ram for sacrifice. God relented. Had he not, Abraham would have slain his son out of devotion to God. Would God then have damned Abraham for completing the sacrifice asked of him and violating his stricture against killing? Doubtful.

 

[Conaill]

Obvious answer:

"I will not break my Vow of Poverty, oh Deity. Since we are talking right now, you can send in a Solar to take this weapon and use it to kick butt, or you can watch your favorite city fall. I will use my mighty Karate chops in thy name, instead."

You are absolutely right that if the Ascetic is in direct contact with his god, he is well within his rights to say "Take this cup from mine hands." and send another emmisary to do the job.

Screw that! Sure, he can *ask*, but if he turns down a direct request from his god, he may as well kiss all his god-given powers goodbye.

The Vow of Poverty is a promise of the PC to his god, to the greater glory of that god. If the god has other plans for him, who is the PC to refuse his god? It's sheer arrogance and hubris for the PC to hold on to his vow against the wishes of his god.

 

[brehobit]

I'm a big fan of the VoP, but let's look a bit smaller. A VoP character is ambushed along with one other. The other is bleeding to death and further more baddies are on the way. His buddy has a potion of cure moderate wounds. What does he do?

The BoED would argue either
a) Don't put PCs in this situation.
b) Try to stabilize the friend and pray for help.

I'd lean more toward a than b. Bit I don't really like either one. Letting him use the potion and keeping VoP leads to a slippery slope.

(Humm, could a VoP character summon a creature and have the creature give his friend the potion? That may actually work by the rules but I dislike it a lot.)

Mark

 

[Rystil Arden]

I find it interesting that everyone seems to assume that an Exalted character who stays Exalted but annoys their deity could lose the feat at the deity's whim. There's nothing saying that the deity is granting the powers rather than the perfection brought about in the one taking the feat--in fact, according to the feat, you can take a vow to a cause (perhaps the cause of Poverty or something like that) and not a deity at all, if you want.

 

[Bront]

Good point. While much of the exhaulted stuff is deity specific, not all of it is. Some of it could be the "Grace of Goodness". Why not in a magical world?

BTW, why is it when a good player takes a vow or makes some other sacrifice, people hunt for ways to make him break it? While it's supposed to be a challenge, there are rewards for the challenge, and it's supposed to be fun. No need for the "Let's corupt the paladin" mindset.