D&D 5E Is WotC ever going to release something high level? Even as UA test material?

[BMaC]

Let me preface my comments by stating that I am an unapologetic 5th ediciton fanboi. It's a fantastic edition and I buy everything WotC releases for it.

However, it's because of my support for and loyalty to 5th edition that I am now starting to feel a little bit aggrieved. I've been playing 5th ed since release:

• Razick the Red, a saucy gnome rogue, dealt the killing blow to Tiamat
• Knuckletooth, a half-orc valor bard, wrote skaldic poetry about his escape from the under-dark.
• Zenti of House Hyperion, an aasimar warlock, defeated the vampire Strahd in his lair.
• Praxiphanes the Prothonotary, a human necromancer, assaulted the redoubt of the yak folk with zombies and then slew the fire giants below.

I'm looking forward to the Chult book, and you can bet I'll buy it and Xanathar's the day they come out.

However, I'd appreciate it if, almost three years after the Player's Handbook came out, WotC would support high level play. Please give us something official past level 14. But WotC market research shows that no one plays high level? This research is dated and has now become a self-fulfilling prophecy: there is no official high level product so nobody plays it. Let me also note, right away, that I am a big fan of 3rd party publishers and the DM's Guild. Both of these sources offer some admittedly mixed quality support for high level play. A while ago I read either Mike Mearls or Chris Perkins noting that most DMs prefer to homebrew high level adventures. It's probably true, but no less true for how DM's adapt and bastardize the APs.

Those of us who have played high level characters (don't you ever want to cast a 9th level spell?) know that 1) PCs scale better than monster CRs and because of this 2) combat is extremely difficult for a DM to both construct and to actually run.

I would love to see how the maestros--the people in charge of the game--run high-level play. Please, just give us a short UA high-level module.

 

[Zardnaar]

Lol this dates back to the 80's if not 70's. People don't pkay high level D&D. Sales of BECMI tanked after the BE part of it.C was level 15+.

Most people don't complete ap's either. Designers don't like high level D&D stuff and it generally doesn't sell.

 

[Raith5]

Agree. It almost seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy which seems to be built within the game. I actually find it a bit deflating to be mid level and think really we are not going to use the level 13 stuff and above because there is little support by WOTC and (hence?) at my actual table.

 

[Zardnaar]

Agree. It almost seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy which seems to be built within the game. I actually find it a bit deflating to be mid level and think really we are not going to use the level 13 stuff and above because there is little support by WOTC and (hence?) at my actual table.

Original D&D was lvl 1-10, 1E was up to around level 13 or 14 for some classes higher for others but was really topping out around level 10 with the monsters, a Balor for example had 8HD, Lolth had 66 hp.

It was not until 1989 a core book had the level 1-20 thing in it, BECMI did go to level 36 but functionally was level 1-14. BECMI also had a lower power curve level 14 was more like level 11 in AD&D.

3E was broken at higher levels, 4E kinda brok in different ways as the game required to much work to run at higher level (as in 10+).

There is a reason people talk about the sweet spot, its not a lack of high level support that dooms higher level play its to much work for the DM and most campaigns do not get that high anyway. The highest selling D&D items ever are for level 1-3 and the 1E PHB and most of the classic 1E adventures are level 1-8.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay, so all three replies are completely apologetic towards WotC here.

What happened to the idea that if a game advertises twenty levels, we should actually COMPLAIN if said game doesn't actually support all twenty levels...?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

Let me preface my comments by stating that I am an unapologetic 5th ediciton fanboi. It's a fantastic edition and I buy everything WotC releases for it.

However, it's because of my support for and loyalty to 5th edition that I am now starting to feel a little bit aggrieved. I've been playing 5th ed since release:

• Razick the Red, a saucy gnome rogue, dealt the killing blow to Tiamat
• Knuckletooth, a half-orc valor bard, wrote skaldic poetry about his escape from the under-dark.
• Zenti of House Hyperion, an aasimar warlock, defeated the vampire Strahd in his lair.
• Praxiphanes the Prothonotary, a human necromancer, assaulted the redoubt of the yak folk with zombies and then slew the fire giants below.

I'm looking forward to the Chult book, and you can bet I'll buy it and Xanathar's the day they come out.

However, I'd appreciate it if, almost three years after the Player's Handbook came out, WotC would support high level play. Please give us something official past level 14. But WotC market research shows that no one plays high level? This research is dated and has now become a self-fulfilling prophecy: there is no official high level product so nobody plays it. Let me also note, right away, that I am a big fan of 3rd party publishers and the DM's Guild. Both of these sources offer some admittedly mixed quality support for high level play. A while ago I read either Mike Mearls or Chris Perkins noting that most DMs prefer to homebrew high level adventures. It's probably true, but no less true for how DM's adapt and bastardize the APs.

Those of us who have played high level characters (don't you ever want to cast a 9th level spell?) know that 1) PCs scale better than monster CRs and because of this 2) combat is extremely difficult for a DM to both construct and to actually run.

I would love to see how the maestros--the people in charge of the game--run high-level play. Please, just give us a short UA high-level module.

If and when the designers actually try playing their own game at high levels, they would realize the game really doesn't hold up.

What's needed for proper high level support is not only a high-level adventure, but much beefier support for high-level characters and monsters alike.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Mephista]

Okay, so all three replies are completely apologetic towards WotC here.

What happened to the idea that if a game advertises twenty levels, we should actually COMPLAIN if said game doesn't actually support all twenty levels...?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

The game supports going to all twenty levels. Not every individual adventure is designed for it, but you have all the tools to play to level 20, and a bit beyond with the stuff in the DMG. You just don't have premade plot for it. You have the mechanics, magical items, monsters and even some setting details (high level play tends to include planar travel and godly beings). That's support. There's just not an adventure for it.

And this isn't being apologetic. This is being realistic. There's not enough of a market demand for pre-made adventures for high level PCs, and that's backed by both research and previous sales patterns.

 

[ExploderWizard]

My campaign is still chugging along and the PCs are 13th-15th level. We may get to 20th level before the campaign ends or maybe not. I have used converted older edition material and home brew content the whole campaign. If you are reliant on spoon fed adventures for all of your play then you get what someone else thinks you want or need.

Its YOUR game. If what you want for it isn't being published then just do it! There is a good selection of of old D&D adventures from the CM and M series that are ready made scenarios for high level play. I am using CM2 Death's Ride for my campaign now. I want to see what high level play in 5E looks like and a lack of an official published adventure isn't stopping anything. It is simply a question of how much do you want it?

 

[Caliburn101]

Pretty sure WoTC know their CR system entirely self-destructs at high level, which means an official adventure would either;

1. Have to ignore the rules to make it interesting and challenging for players... or...

2. Stick to the CR rules and fail as an adventure.

Option 1 would be an overt admission that the CR system is borked, and option 2 would be a disaster.

Better to avoid it until 'alternative' CR rules come out...

 

[DEFCON 1]

There *is* a self-fulfilling prophecy here, but it ain't WotC's fault, it's your own.

"I want high-level adventures!"
"Our research tells us you won't buy high-level adventures, so we aren't going to produce any."
"No, really! We WILL buy them!"
"Fine. DMs Guild has quite a number of high-level adventures for you to buy."
"Oh. No. Um... we don't want to buy THOSE high-level adventures, we want to buy other ones."
"As we said... our research tells us you won't buy high-level adventures, so we aren't going to produce any."

There was a thread here like a month or two ago talking about the best-selling adventures on DMs Guild, and only TWO of them were levels 14+. If most of you people aren't willing to plop down like FOUR BUCKS for high-level Adventurers League adventures, why in the nine hells would WotC possibly believe you'd put down $50 for one of theirs? You want to prove WotC wrong... take the $50 you'd normally spend on a WotC hardcover adventure book this year and buy a dozen DMs Guild adventures of Tier 3 & 4. If enough of you DO that... maybe it'll change their research such that they see there *is* a market for high-level adventures.

If you happen to be one of the few people who HAVE been doing that, buying 3rd party high-level adventures... then I'm sorry your cohorts have not been holding up their end of the bargain. You should blame them for not putting their money where their mouths are.