D&D 5E Is WotC ever going to release something high level? Even as UA test material?

[Jester David]

Heck, even Paizo has only had one AP that hit level 20 (and I don't think anyone finished that one). Prior to that, the highest was 18 (or rather, you *reached* 18, but played at 17). Most only hit 12-15.

 

[Mistwell]

Pretty sure WoTC know their CR system entirely self-destructs at high level, which means an official adventure would either;

1. Have to ignore the rules to make it interesting and challenging for players... or...

2. Stick to the CR rules and fail as an adventure.

Option 1 would be an overt admission that the CR system is borked, and option 2 would be a disaster.

Better to avoid it until 'alternative' CR rules come out...

3. Almost nobody is going to check the CRs of the various encounters and compare them to guidelines, thus risking very little "overt admission" concerning anything about the official home-brew CR suggestions in the books. And if anyone did check them, all that would happen is discussion about how to adapt them to model a different system which would harm nothing. WOTC wouldn't suffer much damage to anything meaningful if people thought an adventure didn't follow the guidelines. Indeed, I've seen it argued that their existing adventures don't follow them, and I have not seen any dire consequences for WOTC from that, have you?

I am pretty sure their reluctance to make a high level adventure has nothing to do with the threat of challenges to the published CR system by message board posters.

 

[Mistwell]

IME 5e is completely playable at high levels (one group is 13-14, another up to 18). The Encounter Building rules are crap at any level so that's not particular to high level. High level monsters can definitely threaten high level PCs, and unlike 4e it doesn't even get too slow unless I use dozens of Vrocks...

In my experience, which surely isn't universal, the problem becomes tailoring things to particular parties. What I mean is that as you say the Encounter Building rules don't function well at most levels (and grows worse over time). So as a DM you (or at least I) get used to tailoring challenges as you go based on instinct and experience. Which works great. Even at high levels, this can be done, and after a while it's not that hard to do it.

Except the higher and higher levels the party gets, I suspect the more those instincts and experiences are honed by the particular party and player composition you're working with at your table.

So by the time you're at level 16, what challenges one party bares very little resemblance to what might challenge some other group.

Now, how do you write an adventure that can properly challenge most level 16 groups, if the best way to do it is to tailor it to the particular group? It becomes a pretty tricky task.

 

[Jester David]

A "epic adventure" is pretty tricky.
First, balance is impossible. The variance in power level between an optimised and a baseline party becomes huge. And the powers a party can bring to bear on a single encounter vary so much depending on what classes are combinations are at the table. Plus magic items.

Also, not everyone completes an storyline. Groups fall apart, people wander off the rails, there are TPKs, etc.
The number of people who buy a 1-10 storyline is > than the people who run it is > the number of people who run it to the end. A > B > C.
So the audience for a potentially follow-up is always going to be <C. How much lower? Unknown. It becomes a gamble.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would like a high level adventure in the vein of Scales of War. I think to make it work you have to get the PC's out among the Planes, where high level threats are more common: oh wow, yet another wizard who thinks he is somebody because he can cast wish. You will be the 12th one I ate this week......


I notice that high level play at my table tends to be dominated by situations caused by questionable choices the PC's made at lower levels and/or caused by the fame the PC's have acquired (funny how many people want to make a reputation and steal your stuff when you are famous and have a lot of goodies). As they say in pro wrestling: winning the title is easy, keeping it is hard. It is hard to make an AP based on something like that, though.

 

[guachi]

It doesn't show much faith in your product if you don't support basic parts of the game.

I would welcome a 11-20 or 11-17 AP if only to provide examples of higher level encounter design. If the makers of the game aren't bothering, what hope do I have to create something balanced and fun?

 

[CapnZapp]

The game supports going to all twenty levels. Not every individual adventure is designed for it, but you have all the tools to play to level 20, and a bit beyond with the stuff in the DMG. You just don't have premade plot for it. You have the mechanics, magical items, monsters and even some setting details (high level play tends to include planar travel and godly beings). That's support. There's just not an adventure for it.

And this isn't being apologetic. This is being realistic. There's not enough of a market demand for pre-made adventures for high level PCs, and that's backed by both research and previous sales patterns.

No, if you think the support is sufficient, you simply haven't tried it.

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[Warmaster Horus]

I'm seeing the usual references to CR. Face it, CR is a rudimentary tool at best for nearly all levels. As some have pointed out setting up a 'normal' story and encounters in High Level D&D is very hard because of the variability of party consistency, PC optimization, player experience and variables like magic items. Have you watched Critical Role recently? Matt Mercer puts a ton of work into his encounters and they're still a bit floppy at times (7 x 17th level PCs will do that to you), either way too easy or with some PCs dying.

The freedom that High Level play gives you as a designer is the gloves are off. Want a god's avatar to start a bar brawl in the tavern the PCs are in? Go ahead! A portal opens in the town square and dozens of powerful demons are pouring out? No problem. Keep the challenges hard and keep them coming fast. Players at this level should already have an idea of their limitations and have escape & evasion plans. If not, well, 20th level is a good place to die.

If you're writing a high level campaign or encounter you should have a good feel for how your players will handle challenges you are considering. Those characters got to be high level by playing a LOT of D&D so if you're their DM you have a great advantage in presenting difficulties you know will make them work for success.

 

[CapnZapp]

There *is* a self-fulfilling prophecy here, but it ain't WotC's fault, it's your own.

"I want high-level adventures!"
"Our research tells us you won't buy high-level adventures, so we aren't going to produce any."
"No, really! We WILL buy them!"
"Fine. DMs Guild has quite a number of high-level adventures for you to buy."
"Oh. No. Um... we don't want to buy THOSE high-level adventures, we want to buy other ones."
"As we said... our research tells us you won't buy high-level adventures, so we aren't going to produce any."

There was a thread here like a month or two ago talking about the best-selling adventures on DMs Guild, and only TWO of them were levels 14+. If most of you people aren't willing to plop down like FOUR BUCKS for high-level Adventurers League adventures, why in the nine hells would WotC possibly believe you'd put down $50 for one of theirs? You want to prove WotC wrong... take the $50 you'd normally spend on a WotC hardcover adventure book this year and buy a dozen DMs Guild adventures of Tier 3 & 4. If enough of you DO that... maybe it'll change their research such that they see there *is* a market for high-level adventures.

If you happen to be one of the few people who HAVE been doing that, buying 3rd party high-level adventures... then I'm sorry your cohorts have not been holding up their end of the bargain. You should blame them for not putting their money where their mouths are.

Completely uninterested in DMsG or AL scenarios, and will not pay money for them regardless of level.

You were saying...?

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[CapnZapp]

Heh TSR had the same problem, none of the D&Ds have worked that well at higher levels except maybe BECMI even then its more like lvl 15ish.

Still no answer as to why some forumists let WotC get away with poor to non-existent support for the levels they advertise the game as having.

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