Isn't Success in D&D Dependent Upon Murder?

hong said:
It's only murder if you kill the wrong people. Alignment is there to help make sure you kill the right people.
Though indubitably posted for its amusement this is EXTREMELY close to the truth (probably wherein lies its effectiveness as humor).

Demihumans, humanoids, and many monsters are (in a hoity-toity, psychobabble bull sort of way) simply standins for actual humanity in some form. Some are intended specifically to highlight certain aspects of our humanity (or inhumanity as it were). Some are merely a nebulous "other/not-human" representative that exists ONLY to be killed WITHOUT needing extensive moral and ethical justification. Such is often the way of fantasy, yes? The witch in the fairy tale is "wicked". It matters not why - it just IS. Accept that for what it is and move on.

Yeah, you can play D&D and in the process actually actively explore questions of racism, ethics, morality, philosophy, etc. and how they relate to The Real World. But that's not why evil things exist in the game. Evil things exist in the game of D&D so that the PC heroes can simply beat the crap out of them WITHOUT needing much justification beyond "He/it was the wrong alignment."

To specifically address the idea of murder - take a Websters definition of murder:

"The unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing of one human being by another."

Most D&D combat is going to be human (or the closest human stand-ins being core PC races like elves and dwarves) killing things that are increasingly NOT human, even if having human-ish physical forms, and even if sentient. The game presents them as "definitively" evil, vile, undesireable creatures that can and should be disposed of with little concern.

Most combats are not going to be premeditated, but occur at the drop of a hat when you have two armed and INHERENTLY opposing sides who then RACE to kill the other as fast and efficiently as possible. Well, maybe the PC's are seeking such encounters by virtue of seeking what such creatures often possess/guard/obstruct access to - treasure, both mundane and magical. Yet again, the apparant design and intent of the game is not to DRAW ATTENTION to the issues of the morality and ethics of the behavior, but to HANDWAIVE it in favor of the action, horror, and gore that fantasy leans toward.

It certainly isn't the suggestion of the rules that such behavior is unlawful (as in: against written codes of law, as opposed to a general philosophical bent opposite that of chaos). Killing the evil or merely undesired human-ish THINGS and taking their stuff - and enjoying the process of doing so - IS what the game is designed around. That's no more inherently abhorrent than any R-rated action movie, or cop-themed TV show where the good guys shoot the bad guys or otherwise kill them in ever-more interesting and amusing ways.

Lastly, it certainly isn't done maliciously (most of the time :)) where the characters do this simply because they enjoy perpetrating as much thinly-justified lethal violence as possible as opposed to actually ridding their world of threats and menaces of varying degrees and becoming rich and famous in the process. Perhaps even seeking riches and fame as a primary goal and accepting that as a secondary benefit The Bad Guys get thinned out.

So, is success in D&D dependant on Murder? Not even slightly. Yes, this is largely because of how D&D defines (or studiously does NOT define) its own morality, but nonetheless... Real-world morals and ethics are NOT directly applicable to the morals and ethics of a D&D world which freely misuses and ignores real-world issues, nor are the morals and ethics of D&D directly applicable to the real world. To do the latter even to a minor degree will almost certainly define you as a sociopath and get you incarcerated and psychoanalyzed for the remainder of your life for your resulting actions and failure to comprehend and obey real-world social, moral, ethical, and philosophical norms as well as written law.
 
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This is one of my baselines for alignment. A house rule, as it were.

The more towards good aligned the character is, the harder a time he has killing anything.
The more towards evilly aligned the character is, the easier a time he has killing anything.
The general human regard for life represents true neutral (thus, true neutral is pretty dark.)

This is not generally how the characters themselves see things. Or how my fantasy societies generally see things.

In 1E, killing and theft were the way to be ('I killed that orc for 20 experience, his 100 gold pieces netted me another 100 experience points, and his +1 dagger netted me another 500 experience points! Yeah!')
In Hackmaster, of course, they make it a point. (+12 Hackmaster swords are useful, for killing ...)
In 2E, killing is merely the majority approach. You can get experience for other things.
In 3E, killing is still the primary way, but there are alternatives. One can gain experience and level through solving puzzles and problems, by overcoming adversarial situations, solving mysteries, and defeating foes without killing them.
 

Isn't Success in D&D Dependent Upon Murder?

No.

<Umm...can you elaborate.>

Sure.

No. If your game is about more then killing things.

<Yeah...thanks Ad.>

Don't mention it weird voice in my head.

;)
 

E of N said:
The more towards good aligned the character is, the harder a time he has killing anything.
The more towards evilly aligned the character is, the easier a time he has killing anything.
If having no problem whatsoever killing a ravenous rabid mutant cyborg ninja dog threatening my toddler makes me Evil, then I don't want to be Good.
 

I'd say it's not murder. It's just honest-to-god fun; kicking in doors, killing things and taking their stuff.

Search warrrants, juries, reasonable doubt etc.. are modern concepts that for the most part have no place in my medieval games.
 

However you choose to justify it, PCs break and enter, TWOC, mug, blow the heck out of things and (generally) gratuitously kill things and take their stuff. Including the Good ones.

If you really want to play the alignment card, LG PCs wouldn't adventure, they would right wrongs. They wouldn't go into dungeons looking for treasure ('cos it probably belongs to someone), but they might go into one to rescue a lost child, for which they may expect a reward but not the entire contents of the dungeon. And they might pass on the reward if they are particularly virtuous.

D&D, as previously pointed out, is escapism. Characters kill things for a living which most people can't do in real life.
If you want realism open your front door and go for a wander.
 

Felix said:
If having no problem whatsoever killing a ravenous rabid mutant cyborg ninja dog threatening my toddler makes me Evil, then I don't want to be Good.
You don't think making both the target and the situation that extreme qualifies as "a hard time" killing?
 

Numion said:
Search warrrants, juries, reasonable doubt etc.. are modern concepts that for the most part have no place in my medieval games.
Medieval, on the other hand, has no place in my fantasy games except as the thinnest veneer of clothing and building styles..... ;)
 

Kahuna Burger said:
You don't think making both the target and the situation that extreme qualifies as "a hard time" killing?
Edena of Neith proposed an absolute measure for determining alignment:
The more towards good aligned the character is, the harder a time he has killing anything

So what happens in the case of absolute Good? It cannot be harder for anyone to kill than someone who is absolutely Good: it must be that it is Impossible for absolute Good to kill.

In the absurd example of cyber ninja dog vs infant, this proposal renders the result that an absolutely Good creature would not kill the dog to save the infant's life. Can you reconcile that with your conception of good? Given the contrived choice of kill dog or let infant die, the Good will let the child be killed.

Because I don't want to muddy the water by introducing alternatives to killing (knocking out, trapping, Plane Shifting...) or introducing the morality of risking the life of the child to save the life of the ravenous rabid mutant cyber ninja dog, I'm asking you to assume that the only option is Kill Dog or Watch Child Die.​

If Edena allows that in the cyber ninja dog vs infant case it is Good to be able to kill without compunction, then Edena renders her scale of judgement subject to circumstances. It is then merely a question of where you draw the line, instead of "Good creatures don't kill".

I have no problem with "Good creatures will explore options besides killing more readily", but the idea that Absolute Good finds killing in any regard Absolutely Impossible is ridiculous.
 

Felix said:
I have no problem with "Good creatures will explore options besides killing more readily", but the idea that Absolute Good finds killing in any regard Absolutely Impossible is ridiculous.

I would say that in some cases, refusal to kill would make one evil instead of good.

Example - Evil dictator has hand on button that will launch nuclear/plasma/gamma ray weapon. Not wasting him, given the opportunity, would be evil in my book.
 

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