Isolate and Kill vs. Neuter and Ignore: Which Control tactic do you prefer?

Which tactic do you prefer?

  • Isolate and Kill

    Votes: 13 29.5%
  • Neuter and Ignore

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • Both

    Votes: 13 29.5%
  • Neither

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • I don't agree with the distinction

    Votes: 6 13.6%

That's not true. Neuter and Ignore is explicitly not focus fire -- you have already (usually) damaged the creature with the attack(s) needed to neuter it, and then you shift to a different target. Depending on what powers the party has available, continuing to neuter the creature might even require multiple attacks.

Not to me.

Neuter and Ignore is one PC attacking the one foe (at least once) and everyone else still focusing fire on some second foe.

Why would Neuter and Ignore throw away the advantages of focus fire?

It's not focus fire on the neutered foe, but it should still be focus fire on the other NPCs. It might not be 100% focus fire, encounters rarely work that way. But, it's still a tactic to allow and even encourage focus fire on a different foe because this neutered foe is being ignored.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't think I've ever seen either tactic in play. Then again IIRC I've seen all of three actual controllers in 4e, and their "tactics" could best be described as "blast the other PCs until their players corner mine and convince him to re-roll a striker", "flail around uselessly", and "blow away the hordes of minions the DM attaches to every encounter so I don't feel useless".

OTOH I've seen multiple controller-secondary PCs (and assisting defenders) totally shut down entire encounters and then just whittle them away over multiple turns (so neuter & kill?), and I've definitely seen defenders isolate / neuter threats...
 

The controller in my party is very good at push, knockdown and daze.
Most are applied as large area effects, which usually target multiple foes. He tries to include what ever the rest of the group is focusing on in his blasts.
I guess it comes down to isolate and kill, but isolation is normally done by locking up half the battlefield.

More annoying is the bard's "Banish to the Feywild" power. Its record is taking an elite out for 4 rounds. He lives in dread of someone finding out he is responsible for a giant mechanical badger, a chained cambion and a cyborged infernal ratman wandering around in the feywild.
 

My current current 4E group tends to do Isolate and Kill, for the simple reason that my character as a Pacifist/Shielding Cleric build has powers that tend to simultaneously cripple the offense AND the defense of the target (like it gets dazed and -5 to attacks/defenses, or dazed and damage vulnerability 10). The swordmage who multi'd into artificer/battle engineer and the warden that multied into cleric have powers for racheting up the offensive power of the entire party, so the party has sometimes put on some crushing displays of overwhelming. I've had solos that were 4 levels above the party taken from nearly full to outright dead in a single round. Hell, the party actually beat a solo that was 12 levels above them on one occassion with that tactic. (They were just supposed to try to survive for a few rounds.)

Now, in my prior 4E game, we very much doing neuter and ignore. And by neuter, I mean I was playing a Champion of Order paladin, and whatever the strongest thing on the map was would be getting horribly debuffed by me whether it liked it or not, leaving the rest of party free to clamp down on and destroy the normal, significantly frailer supporting critters. Once divine power came out this change things a little bit, as I suddenly had AoE marking and debuffs that I could throw out, making life fairly miserable for eveything within 3 squares of my paladin. The greatweapon fighter, the wizard, and the starlock would pick a victim and go to town.

I will note that Icy Tomb is pretty effective as a neuter and ignore power, though our wizard in that party had such awful timing when using it.
 

I prefer to mix the two. If possible, I lead off with a couple neuter-and-ignore moves to improve the odds, allowing us to focus on the non-neutered enemies (which I then target for isolate-and-kill). On the other hand, I might go for isolate-and-kill right away if there's a juicy target to be had, like a caster or a skirmisher away from the pack--or if neuter-and-ignore doesn't seem feasible.
 

It's both situational and depends greatly on your sort of controller.

The absolutely simplest way to control an enemy is to shove him, her, or it into the center of your melee team and prevent him from escaping while your melee strikers and defenders pound him into mush -- works much better against artillery and (some) controllers than soldiers and melee specialists, but there you have it.

The second simplest way to control an enemy is to immobolize or slow them, send them to a corner of the battlefield, and then forget about them while you fight the rest of their team while they're a man (or woman, or thing) down. Of course, this works much better against melee specilaists (and soliders), and not so much against artillery or controllers.

Barring hitting their weakness, the most effective ways to prevent an enemy from acting (aside from killing them) is to render them accross the board useless for a while -- knock them into another dimension, render them stunned or unconcious, turn them into stone, weaken them, daze them (for many enemies), or give them a huge penalty to hit, or put a huge wall between them and you. Obviously, you usually want to ignore enemies that have been so thoroughly neutered (except for unconcious ones, where it depends); they're not doing anything, and probably won't for a while, so it's best to fight the forces you've divided off (unless, of course, the enemies you've so removed are, say, elites or solos (without a giant penalty to saves), who are very likely to throw off your debuffs in a hurry. In that case, the debuffs are mostly keeping them from doing damage--but if they're also making them substantially more vulnerable, you're better off upgrading the "stunned" status into a "dead" status rather than ignoring them while they're vulnerable.

Finally, there's the method of controlling an enemy by simply making them hideously vulnerable--using tricks like automatic crits (or unconciousness which lets allies make coup de gras), granting huge bonuses to saves or huge penalties to defense (psions, I'm talking to you), applying vulnerabilities, etc. In this case, obviously, the controller is acting as a pseudo-leader -- and the correct action is isolate-and-kill.

The thing is, many controllers can have all or most of these concepts in their toolbox (in addition to things like bunch-and-blast, or the best-of-all-worlds stuff like area debuffs that lock down (daze, immobolize, stun, whatever) a whole battlefield, blaster controller tricks that force enemies to choose between "a lot of damage" and "even more damage", etc). So while which you should favor depends a lot on what controller you build, the real answer is very specific to the situation--keeping in mind the truisim that the best and most permanent status effect to inflict on a monster is "dead".
 

I guess I consider my usage of immobilize and slow w/my new Wizard to be more of an ignoring tactic, maybe Isolate and Ignore :) We're 9th level and my first combat w/the character had me cast 2 spells on a giant on the left that kept him slowed and out o combat for 3 rounds. Then I helped toss out things like fireball, burning hands and thunderwave on the enemies that were off to the right side of the courtyard. Our Warden and Rogue went off to handle the giant and 2 or 3 other bad guys while the Paladin and Cleric held off the guys I was helping to fry. It worked pretty well giving the Warden time to set himself up as super-quicksand :)
 

I guess I consider my usage of immobilize and slow w/my new Wizard to be more of an ignoring tactic, maybe Isolate and Ignore :) We're 9th level and my first combat w/the character had me cast 2 spells on a giant on the left that kept him slowed and out o combat for 3 rounds. Then I helped toss out things like fireball, burning hands and thunderwave on the enemies that were off to the right side of the courtyard. Our Warden and Rogue went off to handle the giant and 2 or 3 other bad guys while the Paladin and Cleric held off the guys I was helping to fry. It worked pretty well giving the Warden time to set himself up as super-quicksand :)

I would put that in the category of Neuter and Ignore, but it has become obvious that not everyone (i.e. no one) agrees with my suggested terminology... The main reason I did not list Slow or Immobilize in "neutering" techniques is that they only have a neutering effect if the creature is either melee-only or much less effective at range. Clearly there are other powers that are equally specific, e.g. supressing auras only neuters creatures who actually have them.
 

For me, it depends on what I am playing. Literally. The following is how I have played the classes.

Shaman|Psion hybrid? Thats a Neuter and have the rest of the party ignore. Static Mote + Spirit Companion(And its OA) allow me to stall at least one creature indefinitely, rendering it mostly harmless. Really shined in this capacity in splitting a two elite + minions/standards encounter, by stalling the harder hitting elite completely until the rest of the monsters were cleaned up. I ended up bloodied from the fight, from repeated Spirit Companion destruction. Considering just how MUCH damage it was dishing out each hit, we all breathed a sigh of relief as it destroyed the Spirit Companion instead of smashing us.

Druid? Isolate and kill. Grasping Claws, Savage Rend, and Grasping Tide as at-wills just simply helps in this. Grasping Claws to keep a creature from escaping. Savage Rend to move it away from its allies and where I can freely attack it. Grasping Tide to hit a group and stall them over and over.

Warlock? My current Con/Int Sorcerer-king Warlock favors more towards a "Isolate, Neuter, then Kill" approach. It doesn't join in the focus fire of my current party, preferring to dive behind the enemy and hit the dangerous targets while drawing their attention. Isolate with forced movement, driving it away from the enemy's allys with Eldritch Strike + Staggering Longsword. Neuter with self-defense boosts from Shadow Walk, Armor of Dark Majesty, Cloak of Translocation, and staying adjacent to threaten with OAs that slide. Then just simply wail on it till it dies. Its not as powerful of an isolate or neuter as a purely focused one, but it works.
-Slowly, ever so slowly, I'm getting my allies used to this. That way they don't keep rushing after me and focus firing on my target. The Defender of the group is the hardest to prevent trying to rush after me in the "danger" spot. I've had to initially throw extra monsters her way, to keep her busy so it doesn't go after the party squishies. It was fun though, when the monster with vs. Reflex MBA tried to go up against me. The Warden would have been auto-hit almost. My Warlock though...well after all the bonuses, its Reflex defense was higher then the Warden's AC. DM ran the poor thing panicking, trying to hit me as I chased it all over.

Swordmage or Swordmage-hybrid? Thats a definite case of Neuter and Ignore. Allies focus-fire on the Neutered target, while the Swordmage or Swordmage-hybrid moves after a new target to distract.

Avenger? Pursuit Avenger I play similar to how I play my current Warlock with its "Isolate, Neuter, and Kill" approach. Retribution Avengers though doesn't bother with the tactics, as it doesn't gain the benefits.

The rest of the classes I've played, (Warlord, Runepriest, etc.), ignore the tactics completely. Instead, they go towards focus fire, healing, and other parts of the group tactics. Of course those classes weren't secondary Controller, so they didn't matter anyways.
 
Last edited:

Shaman|Psion hybrid? Thats a Neuter and have the rest of the party ignore. Static Mote + Spirit Companion(And its OA) allow me to stall at least one creature indefinitely, rendering it mostly harmless.
I have to ask... why would this work? Does the OA do something I don't know?

It's basically:
* Creature starts its turn slowed
* If it really tries, it can move somewhere else and attack something real, but it'll take an opportunity attack to do so.
* If it doesn't really try, it will get attacked when the mote explodes.

So, either way it gets attacked _once_, so it should always leave, once it figures out what's going on... say after one round of it.

Now, combine it with a fighter with a _lot_ of resist lightning, or after being forced into a corner (at which point it's not static mote, it's just the spirit companion)... sure... though as soon as the spirit companion dies it can still just leave the corner.
 

Remove ads

Top