Isolate and Kill vs. Neuter and Ignore: Which Control tactic do you prefer?

[WOLead]

I have to ask... why would this work? Does the OA do something I don't know?

It's basically:
* Creature starts its turn slowed
* If it really tries, it can move somewhere else and attack something real, but it'll take an opportunity attack to do so.
* If it doesn't really try, it will get attacked when the mote explodes.

So, either way it gets attacked _once_, so it should always leave, once it figures out what's going on... say after one round of it.

* Static Mote either behind or above the creature. Between the creature and the party, only if allies are out of burst range or they can take it.
* Spirit Companion placed either between your party and the creature or above it.
* World Serpent's Grasp so that the Spirit Companion's OA knocks it prone. (Works with any Spirit OA except Watcher Spirit, where the ally with the RBA needs World Serpent's Grasp.)
* Rushing Cleats with either Mark of Storms or Augment 1 with Orb Expertise to keep sliding/pulling the creature back two squares when it doesn't escape Static Mote's Burst.

Each turn, just summon a new Static Mote by the creature and possibly resummon your Spirit Companion.

For a creature to get out of this, it has to double move for 4 squares and be missed by the Spirit Companion's OA. Even then, if it doesn't get in range of the party or if the party members retreat, you just set it up again.
It tries/does pop your Spirit Companion? It only has 1 move action for 2 squares.
It tries to shift and move? Still caught in the C.Burst 3 and dragged back 2 squares (1 square advance).
It tries to double move? OA from the Spirit Companion knocks it prone.

Further get your allies to slowly retreat from the creature to delay its entrance to melee combat, as you keep up the setup.

The Mark of Storms + Rushing Cleats version works the best, since you can potentially trap multiple enemies once they are clustered...until one pops your Spirit Companion. Also nice since if you hit your own allies, you can slide them out to safety.

 

[Aegeri]

For a creature to get out of this, it has to double move for 4 squares and be missed by the Spirit Companion's OA.

Or use a power that lets them move a fixed number of squares, ignoring OAs (some skirmishers have these, for example Deathjump spiders). Additionally, a creature can shift and then move (by running) 4 squares, making life a lot more awkward for you. So it can only take it one move action to escape, though the penalty to attacks and granting CA is a net victory for you. In any event though, unless it's a skirmisher with a movement power most creatures will have to waste an entire turn getting away - but getting away isn't really that hard.

Personally my observation is that killing things as fast as possible is the best method preferably by insuring it can't do anything while you kill it. You really want to reduce the number of monsters in an encounter as efficiently as possible - because monsters do so much stuff now, even the standard everyday guys that leaving anything alive is a risky move.

 

[keterys]

So, the two things of relevance explains that:
1) World Serpent's Grasp, which turns the OA into a proning attack.
2) Placing the spirit companion above the target, such that they can't just shift away from it. (I avoid doing so as I dislike that rules interpretation, so I forgot that people do it)

Technically, it's possible to ready a charge for as soon as it's not slowed. Its turn ends, and it immediately charges at full speed cause the slow only lasts until the end of that turn. It won't be slowed during that movement, so the OA is not as threatening.

 

[WOLead]

I know, not fool-proof but worked rather well as one of the main tactics for the build.

1) Shift + Run was considered a win for me, especially as I could just simply setup the situation again at the new spot and allies could walk away form the creature due to its -5 penalty.
Though, setting the SCompanion above the creature prevented the normal Shift from allowing it to get away.

2) On readying a charge? Rules Compendium states that "If a creature readies an action that normally triggers opportunity actions, it triggers them twice: when it readies the action and when it takes the action." So it readies the charge, provokes the OA on its turn while slowed, gets knocked prone if hit, then provokes another OA if it tries to crawl-charge on at half its speed.
So it too must Shift out of the threatened area, then Ready but again placing the S.Companion above doesn't allow that with the normal Shift 1.

For anything that has moves/powers to Shift/Teleport/Move out of the mess? Spirit Infusion(For helping with Focus Fire) and Force Hammer(Group or overly-mobile creature) was the alternate At-Will choices for that.

As for killing things as fast as possible? Works. Just when there are two or more such targets on the map, delaying one/two/more of the dangerous monsters while the rest of the party NOVAs one at a time with focus fire helps a lot. Even if its just for one or two turns.

 

[keterys]

Now that's interesting. I'm not entirely sure that's how the RC meant that to work, but it does tie up that knot nicely.

So, yeah, pretty much exactly the two points I said - world serpent's grasp and not believing in 3D spirit companions Cool to know, though - I wasn't familiar with that psion power, and I like it a lot.

 

[Aegeri]

Keterys: That is precisely how it works now with the RC.

I do agree with you on the spirit companion issue: I don't allow things like that to be placed in 3D either. I feel it's one of those rules quirks that should have been fixed/clarified some time ago.

 

[keterys]

Keterys: That is precisely how it works now with the RC.

Yeah, it's actually an interesting change in many ways - getting 2 OAs for the same action is odd. I'm wondering if it was done to stop someone from readying an action for someone's turn to avoid OAs and combat challenges and such (in which case, I think it's a poorly done fix)... it also makes me wonder about readying actions that could, but don't necessarily, provoke.

Say you ready a deft strike for "whenever I can attack anyone other than the spirit companion". Deft Strike doesn't provoke unless you move. You could easily have that power not provoke later, though it's likely to do so unless someone else moves adjacent.

Or say a creature had a trait "Unfettered Mobility: So long as this creature is not slowed, its movement does not provoke opportunity attacks." and it readies to charge when it's not slowed.

Anyhow, I find it interesting, I'm not disputing the tactic works - I was just genuinely baffled how it could work effectively, and then found out.

I do agree with you on the spirit companion issue: I don't allow things like that to be placed in 3D either. I feel it's one of those rules quirks that should have been fixed/clarified some time ago.

Well... I actually don't think it was ever broken. No rule actually allows you to do it, so I don't think it actually can happen. People who like it working that way point out that no rule disallows you from doing it. Both have a point, but I feel strongly that the game only barely supports 3D at all, and certainly didn't think that much about spirit companions.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I do not allow 3D spirits either as the rules do not seem to be written for 3D actions well, and for spirits especially, how can they appear in the air, and hover there indefinitely, but not move from point to point in the air? Never made sense to me.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well... I actually don't think it was ever broken. No rule actually allows you to do it, so I don't think it actually can happen. People who like it working that way point out that no rule disallows you from doing it.

Ok, IE just ate my long detailed post with rules quotes, so I'm not going to write it again.

But bottom line, it's not that "no rule disallows you" to do it, it's that the rules allow it for other conjurations, so why not for this one?

PHB states that conjurations are not affected by environmental phenomena. Isn't gravity an environmental effect? PHB2 states that conjurations are not affected by Terrain and Precipitous Terrain is a type of terrain. ("Terrain and environmental phenomena have no effect on the conjuration.")

As for 3D, isn't squares 20 feet up unoccupied squares? Wouldn't you allow Ghost Sounds 20 feet up? Wouldn't you allow a Mage Hand to be conjured 15 feet up? Wouldn't you allow a Mage Hand to move an object up to a second story window?

Is it that farfetched that a Spirit Companion can move up to a second story window? It's a conjuration just like a Mage Hand.

Basically, gravity (or precipitous terrain) doesn't affect conjurations.

And the move of conjurations isn't a Walk. It isn't a Climb, Run, Swim, or Teleport. It's a move. Would you prevent a Spirit Companion from moving through water unless it had a Swim speed? Water is Underwater Terrain and Terrain doesn't affect conjurations.

The rules do not limit this to a Walk move or a 2D move on a surface. It's just a move. The Mage Hand moves to the window. The Spirit Companion moves to the bottom of the cliff (or the top of the cliff or off the cliff).

The only Terrain that stops a moving conjuration is Blocking Terrain (i.e. solid object) and Hindering Terrain (if caused by a solid object), but that's because there is a specific solid object rule.

Both have a point, but I feel strongly that the game only barely supports 3D at all, and certainly didn't think that much about spirit companions.

The rules might not have strong 3D support, but there is some in the DMG which supports 3D range and 3D movement.

And, there are explicit rules concerning conjurations that one has to at least bend to state that they cannot be conjured in the air and that Precipitous Terrain affects them.

I suspect that opposition to floating conjurations is more a reaction to the additional versatility of them and a reaction to the fact that it's mostly a new concept (i.e. something that didn't really happen in 3E either).


Bottom line: It's magic (and the rules support it more than they disallow it).