Isolation of the Dark Sun multiverse

[Shemeska]

The exception is the mysterious disappearance of the para- and quasi-elemental planes.

Oh they're still there, they just haven't been called discrete planes in 3e. Initially they might have been 'removed' in the 3e MotP, but they've worked their way back into the game since then as many of the creative restrictions put into place early in 3e have fallen to the wayside.

Locations and things specific and iconic to the para and quasi-elemental planes have been referenced in the Planar Handbook and Dragon magazine both, and probably more if you look hard enough. The planes are just being called 'border regions', a semantic change more than anything else, but they're still conceptually serving the same purpose and occupy the same space.

 

[Mark Hope]

Very interesting... have any of these vortices become attached to somebody else? Can they even become attached to somebody else?

I'd say no, not without the kind of massive conflagration of energies that accompanied the attachment of the first vortices (which required the Dark Lens, an artifact that is well out of reach of most Athasians and may even be destroyed - the DS material is a bit unclear on this point). However, there are other uses for Living Vortices, if you can catch one. Check out Dregoth Ascending for more on this (specifically part III).

As to Kalid-Ma, I did use the Ravenloft connection - I am not even aware of the obsidian orbs you speak of - what are they?

Psionic Artifacts of Athas has Kalid-Ma's spirit being fragmented and embedded in five obsidian orbs (originally intended to assist Kalid-Ma in becoming a full dragon). A widely accepted retcon has Kalid-Ma's body ending up in Ravenloft, with his/her spirit remaining on Athas in the orbs (which are now psionic arifacts). If an epic-level defiler/psion consumes all of the orbs, Kalid-Ma will take control of that character's body and be reborn.

Hmm, so with the sorceror king granted templar magic, we have the following sources/types of supernatural power in Dark Sun:

Psionics - the internal power of the person/creature in question but connected to the Atral Plane through temporary Mindscapes

Arcane magic - the power gained from draining life of its energy (can be done quickly and destructively [Defiling] or slowly and non-damagingly [Preserving])

Spirit magic - the power granted by spirits to druids, rangers and possibly other classes

(Para)Elemental magic 1: Clerical Magic - power granted to clerics from the (para)elemental planes in exchange for pacts with (para)elemental entities
(Para)Elemental magic 2: Templar Magic - power from the elemental planes (is it defined which ones - IIRC the spellists are different than for clerics) granted to templars by sorceror kings, through living vortices

Yes to all of the above. Templars seem to get their power from all of the elemental planes - their spells cover a broad base of powers.

Lifeshaping - I know it exists, but what is it, how does it work and what is its source?

It's an ancient form of genetic manipulation based around a kooky material called pith. Its precise knowledge is long lost, but some lore is ritually preserved by descendants of the original rhulisti (plus there are the zik-chil, who seem to be able to do something similar to it as well). It uses womb-like pods and living devices (much like 3e's grafts, actually). Check out Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs and Psionic Artifacts of Athas for lots on lifeshaping.

Is anything missing? Perhaps something Black/Shadow related?

Yes, there are spellcasters who can draw spell energy from the Black (called Shadow Wizards), from the Grey (called Necromants) and from the Cerulean Storm (called Cerulean Wizards, imaginatively enough). The Cerulean Storm is a truly bizarre melding of elemental rain and sun, powered by the Dark Lens, the disembodied spirit of Tithian and other strangeness, and is located out in the middle of the Sea of Silt. It periodically spins off smaller storms that ravage the Tablelands, and it can be tapped by arcane spellcasters. These are all late additions to the DS setting and don't appear in the vast majority of DS products.

Also, did Dark Sun have any other sources/types of supernatural power in the past that have now disappeared and if so are there any prospects for their reappearance? Last but not least, are there any hints (or outright information) that there are still other sources/types of supernatural power to be created/discovered/tapped/added in Dark Sun?

No, not really. There are repeated references to a lost pantheon of Athasian deities, but given that Athas never had any real deities, it is likely that these deities were completely fictional, or that they were elemental powers or spirits of the land. There is also a solitary reference in TotDL about a rhulisti and a kreen Great One who together can grant spells to their followers, but this is somewhat apocryphal and has no parallels elsewhere.

 

[Arkhandus]

I forget, but, don't most portals between planes use the Astral Plane or Ethereal Plane for instantaneous transit, in the same way Teleport spells use the Astral? If so, would this explain why the disrupted connection to the Astral prevents Athasians from traveling much to the Inner Planes, or at least prevents travel to Athas from the Inner Planes most of the time?

 

[Roman]

Once again - superb explanations!

I will ask a last set of questions, since I know you guys, and especially Mark Hope, have better things to do than answer my endless streams of questions, but thanks for being patient with me and taking the time to do so thus far!

Ok, my last questions:

As far as I understand, the Astral Plane of Dark Sun is connected to the Astral Planes of the normal Great Wheel. However, Is the Black/Plane of Shadow connected to the other Planes of Shadow (and thus alternate or other Prime Material Planes) in other cosmologies as suggested by the Manual of the Planes or is it separate? Same question for the Deep Grey - does it connect to Deep Ethereal of other cosmologies?

The Deep Grey has now assumed the function of the Negative Energy Plane. What, if anything, has assumed the function of the Positive Energy Plane, or is the Prime Material Plane the source of positive energy?

Has the introduction of negative energy into the Deep Grey (and possibly positive energy elsewhere) affected the inner planes - i.e. are there now quasi-elemental planes (or even quasi-para-elemental planes )?

The sources/nature of supernatural power in Dark Sun appear to be highly morphic - as evidenced by the appearance of arcane magic (discovered by Rajaat... or created by Rajaat, hmm), the appearance and attachment of the vortices to the sorceror kings, then the creation of the Cerulean storm as a source of magic and possibly some other stuff. It seems feasible that in the event of major 'energy coflagrations' due to say artifact usage/destruction or similarily major events, still more/other forms of supernatural power/magic could arise on Athas too - don't you agree?


As to the Dregoth Ascending and use of Living Vortices, it is really tempting to read that, but it is listed on www.athas.org as an adventure, so I will refrain from doing so in the faint hope that I someday get to play Dark Sun again.

Hmm, this thread has really awoken the desire in me to play Dark Sun, but unfortunately RPGs are not popular in my country and have a stigma of being childish, so it will probably be many years before I get to play a Dark Sun game. Sigh

 

[Mark Hope]

Once again - superb explanations!

I will ask a last set of questions, since I know you guys, and especially Mark Hope, have better things to do than answer my endless streams of questions, but thanks for being patient with me and taking the time to do so thus far!

Heh heh, don't bet on it. I am something of a DS obsessive and could ramble on about this for hours. But again, you're very welcome .

As far as I understand, the Astral Plane of Dark Sun is connected to the Astral Planes of the normal Great Wheel. However, Is the Black/Plane of Shadow connected to the other Planes of Shadow (and thus alternate or other Prime Material Planes) in other cosmologies as suggested by the Manual of the Planes or is it separate? Same question for the Deep Grey - does it connect to Deep Ethereal of other cosmologies?

The Paizo version of Dark Sun did connect the Black to the Plane of Shadow in quite an imaginative manner. The Black isn't linked to the Plane of Shadow in the 2e DS material, nor is it explicitly linked to the Plane of Shadow in the athas.org material (although the latter allows for it to be analogous to the Plane of Shadow where the DM desires). The same goes for the Deep Grey - given the lack of precedence for connecting this to the Deep Ethereal in TotDL, I'd say that this allows the DM to pick and choose as he desires. Personally, I keep my DS cosmology separate from other settings, but we included these links in TotDL to give DMs the freedom to use, refuse or abuse such connections as they see fit.

The Deep Grey has now assumed the function of the Negative Energy Plane. What, if anything, has assumed the function of the Positive Energy Plane, or is the Prime Material Plane the source of positive energy?

Going by the material in TotDL, the Positive Energy Plane is represented by highly energetic regions of the Elemental Planes. The reasoning here is that the Elemental Planes are the closest thing to sources of creative energy in the DS cosmology, and so can be used to represent positive energy if the DM so wishes. In 2e this wasn't required as the positive/negative energy planes didn't play such a large role in spells and class abilities. They have assumed greater prominence in 3e, so there's more of a need to allow for their inclusion.

Has the introduction of negative energy into the Deep Grey (and possibly positive energy elsewhere) affected the inner planes - i.e. are there now quasi-elemental planes (or even quasi-para-elemental planes )?

That's a really interesting idea. From a design perspective it's something of a retcon - the idea being that (from the perspective of a DS3e game), the planes have always been like this. But it would be really cool to develop some of the established planes taking into account the influence of positive and negative energy. This ties in quite nicely with the more obscure inner planes like Ash, Radiance, Lightning etc. Always been a fan of those.

The sources/nature of supernatural power in Dark Sun appear to be highly morphic - as evidenced by the appearance of arcane magic (discovered by Rajaat... or created by Rajaat, hmm), the appearance and attachment of the vortices to the sorceror kings, then the creation of the Cerulean storm as a source of magic and possibly some other stuff. It seems feasible that in the event of major 'energy coflagrations' due to say artifact usage/destruction or similarily major events, still more/other forms of supernatural power/magic could arise on Athas too - don't you agree?

Well, the DS metaplot has always had more than its fair share of world-shaking, canon-altering events, so why stop now? The arisal of a new form of supernatural energy would make for a pretty cool campaign arc. It might be interesting to see how something like incarnum fits into DS. There have already been discussions about making DS vestiges based on figures like Kalak and Tithian over at the DS boards as well.

As to the Dregoth Ascending and use of Living Vortices, it is really tempting to read that, but it is listed on www.athas.org as an adventure, so I will refrain from doing so in the faint hope that I someday get to play Dark Sun again.

Hmm, this thread has really awoken the desire in me to play Dark Sun, but unfortunately RPGs are not popular in my country and have a stigma of being childish, so it will probably be many years before I get to play a Dark Sun game. Sigh

Once you have been bitten by the cactus, there is no going back

 

[Roman]

Again great stuff!

I am glad I had the opportunity to learn so much about Dark Sun today.

Once you have been bitten by the cactus, there is no going back

Heh, I must say that although Dark Sun is my favourite official D&D setting, I have very limited experience with it. I actually got into D&D (though I played other PnP games before) through the Dark Sun: Shattered Lands CRPG and its sequel Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager and immediately fell in love with the setting. I started playing PnP D&D (though not Dark Sun) and eventually discovered that Dark Sun is supported in PnP too and procured some material. I wanted to play in or DM a Dark Sun campaign, but unfortunately the campaign fell apart almost before it started due to RL reasons completely unrelated to Dark Sun or D&D (essentially, people, including myself, had to move countries). And of course, the editions switch also did its own eroding work on the potantial for Dark Sun games.

As a result, despite my long-term affinity for Dark Sun, I am actually a Dark Sun newbie!

Now that I think about it, perhaps an online chat game could partially ease my pains - do you or any other Dark Sun fans know of any online places where people play Dark Sun on online chats?

 

[TarionzCousin]

"Ceramic Pieces?!?"

On the other hand, the integrity of the Dark Sun setting is compromised with the Great Wheel cosmology attached, and Dark Sun characters were balanced internally to the setting, but not with characters from other settings. In other words, Dark Sun and the rest of D&D didn't really mix well.

I played in a Planescape game that added a character from Athas. His money was no good ANYWHERE ELSE in the multiverse. The player kept trying to buy stuff with it, though.

"Ceramic pieces?!? Feh, is this a joke?"

 

[Banshee16]

It wasn't in its own seperate cosmology. It was somewhat unique however in that most of its planar connections were blocked or highly restricted.

Athas still had all of its connections to the Inner Planes, but access to the Ethereal, Astral, and Outer Planes was, with slim exception, largely impossible. Even the souls of the dead couldn't reach the outer planes, nor could conventional deities arise on Athas due to the lack of outer planar connections, and a region known as the Gray surrounded Athas like a sealed buffer between it and those planes.

The reason for the lack of connections was never explained.

However ways in and out did exist. Dregoth the undead sorcerer king had access to an artifact that allowed him to visit the multiverse at large, the githyanki had some interaction with Athas in the past, there were Athasian that visited the inner planes, and there was a racial/cultural ghetto called New Tyr in Sigil formed by refugees from Athas (so presumably there were portals from Sigil to Athas). A renegade rilmani claimed to have been to Athas prior to the genocides instigated by Rajaat. There was also the bit of Athas that was ensnared by the mists of Ravenloft, or (more likely) recreated around that particular darklord who was originally a Templar on Athas. The Gray isn't absolutely solid to transit, though it might as well be.

If I remember correctly from the magic of Athas book, the Grey surrounded Athas, and made travel to the planes harder. A character trying to leave the world needed to succeed on a role to breach the Grey. If they failed, they'd end up in the Grey, and then could only try to leave it once per day. The longer they stayed in the Grey, the sicker they'd get, and the harder it would become to leave, until the character either escaped (either to Athas or to the Planes)....if they didn't escape, they'd die.

Banshee

 

[Mark Hope]

Now that I think about it, perhaps an online chat game could partially ease my pains - do you or any other Dark Sun fans know of any online places where people play Dark Sun on online chats?

You might want to stop by the Dark Sun boards over at the Wizards of the Coast website (I post as Kamelion over there). There have been a couple of online games between members there in the past, but I'm not sure that any are being run at present. Still, it's a fairly active community of DS fans and you might well be able to find some folks interested in getting something running. Plus there's always the e-gaming subforum here at Enworld...

 

[Roman]

You might want to stop by the Dark Sun boards over at the Wizards of the Coast website (I post as Kamelion over there). There have been a couple of online games between members there in the past, but I'm not sure that any are being run at present. Still, it's a fairly active community of DS fans and you might well be able to find some folks interested in getting something running. Plus there's always the e-gaming subforum here at Enworld...

Thanks for the tip. I will definitely drop by. In fact, I will do so right away.