Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Will]

Um, how is it easier for the barbarian to buy up armor bonus than a monk? Bracers of armor cost exactly the same as an armor bonus to armor.

Monks have at least one more type of item that can give them AC, wisdom items. Furthermore, since they don't have a cap on Dex due to armor, they can get more of an AC benefit out of Dex items. That makes it much cheaper to improve AC as a monk than as a barbarian. (and even more so than a heavily armored fighter)

 

[Will]

Ok, looking at examples, the advantage monks have in number of items really only kicks in around level 8, when you can afford the minimum list of items.

Test examples: 8th level monk and 8th level barbarian, let's assume half of standard treasure is used to improve AC, and let's go with a monk with 16 Dex and 14 Wis (which I think is a little more doable) and a barbarian with Dex 12.

Standard wealth is 27k, let's use 17k.

Monk:
Has put 2 ability score points into Dex, now at Dex 18. Without items, AC is 16.
Items:
Bracers of armor +2 (4,000)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000)
Periapt of Wisdom +2 (4,000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (3,000 : +50% with periapt)
Ring of protection +1 (2,000)

This comes out to an AC of 22.

Barbarian:
At higher levels, mithril full plate might be a good idea, but probably not worth it yet.
+3 Breastplate (Armor +7) (9,350)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000)
Ring of protection +1 (2,000)

A little over, by 350. No biggie. Total AC is 20.

 

[CPXB]

Well, true. Monks have a lower chance to hit. That's a trade-off with better defenses.

Really, the idea that picking the schtick of 'big tough guy with a huge sword' vs 'fast nimble guy who runs around naked,' I'd be annoyed if I was a barbarian or fighter next to a monk who was doing the same as me.

But . . . monks don't really have better defenses. When the paladin was in my game (before the player moved) his character consistently had a better AC (and saves, after first level) than my monk! And more hit points.

So, yeah, I think I'm falling into the camp of monks not really having better defenses than other fighter types. Or, rather, *than* fighter types, because monks just *aren't*. Though I think they should be.

 

[CPXB]

Barbarian:
At higher levels, mithril full plate might be a good idea, but probably not worth it yet.
+3 Breastplate (Armor +7) (9,350)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000)
Ring of protection +1 (2,000)

A little over, by 350. No biggie. Total AC is 20.

Sorta forgetting that the barbarian also has damage reduction by this time. One could consider that an important item of defense. Also, the barbarian can match the monk's AC pretty easily by picking up a shield.

And of the heavy damage fighter types, barbarians have the *lowest* ACs.

 

[two]

Ok, looking at examples, the advantage monks have in number of items really only kicks in around level 8, when you can afford the minimum list of items.

Test examples: 8th level monk and 8th level barbarian, let's assume half of standard treasure is used to improve AC, and let's go with a monk with 16 Dex and 14 Wis (which I think is a little more doable) and a barbarian with Dex 12.

Standard wealth is 27k, let's use 17k.

Monk:
Has put 2 ability score points into Dex, now at Dex 18. Without items, AC is 16.
Items:
Bracers of armor +2 (4,000)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000)
Periapt of Wisdom +2 (4,000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (3,000 : +50% with periapt)
Ring of protection +1 (2,000)

This comes out to an AC of 22.

Barbarian:
At higher levels, mithril full plate might be a good idea, but probably not worth it yet.
+3 Breastplate (Armor +7) (9,350)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000)
Ring of protection +1 (2,000)

A little over, by 350. No biggie. Total AC is 20.

You also forgot I was being "nice" and only having the barbarian "spend" 4 points, vs. the monk's outlay of 16 point-buy points (dex=16, wis=14).

To be fair, let's give the barb 16 points to work with too. He buys a dex=18 (16 points), and leaves his wisdom at 8.

So, now the barb's AC is up 3 points (due to dex.) and his total AC is 23. Better than the Monk's, given equal point-buy spendage. And more flexible (add shield for more). Touch AC is worse, granted. Drop the barb's dex to 16, save 6 point buy points, and dump them into...whatever. Now the barb's AC is the same as the monk's, and you have 6 more points to play with, more hitpoints, way more damage output.

Just not seeing it.

As everyone as pointed out, Barb's have the worse AC of any semi-fighting class, no doubt.

 

[ForceUser]

Poking my head back in: you ought to ask your DM if you can build an ascetic monk from the Book of Exalted Deeds. A monk who takes a Vow of Poverty gains big AC boosts and damage boosts verses evil creatures. I worked one out for fun - at 20th level, with certain exalted feats such as Intuitive Attack and Holy Ki Strike, he'd have a 29 Wis, a 43 AC, and be +30/+30/+30/+25/+20 (2d10+8 and 2d6 holy) on attacks. Hitting with all attacks averages out to be around 125 damage per round verses evil critters. Not too shabby considering he'd still have a junkload of other cool abilities - if you took an exalted feat called Fist of the Heavens, at 20th level this ascetic monk's stunning fist DC would be 29 (31 vs. evil).

Anyway. That's what I'm doing with my monk.

 

[CPXB]

Poking my head back in: you ought to ask your DM if you can build an ascetic monk from the Book of Exalted Deeds. A monk who takes a Vow of Poverty gains big AC boosts and damage boosts verses evil creatures. I worked one out for fun - at 20th level, with certain exalted feats such as Intuitive Attack and Holy Ki Strike, he'd have a 29 Wis, a 43 AC, and be +30/+30/+30/+25/+20 (2d10+8 and 2d6 holy) on attacks. Hitting with all attacks averages out to be around 125 damage per round verses evil critters. Not too shabby considering he'd still have a junkload of other cool abilities - if you took an exalted feat called Fist of the Heavens, at 20th level this ascetic monk's stunning fist DC would be 29 (31 vs. evil).

Anyway. That's what I'm doing with my monk.

The DM doesn't have the book, but I've seen the Vow of Poverty stuff and . . . well, I actually like playing Rashad (aka Adamantine Moneybags, due to the invincibility of his cashflow and related issues . . . not precisely the "Vow of Poverty" sort of guy, hehe).

Me and the DM have worked things out to our mutual satisfaction. We improved the monk's BAB to the best and we clipped some class features to add a few feats. If it comes overpowered later on, we'll trim back some of these things.

 

[Will]

CPXB/two: Yes, the barbarian could have better AC with a shield or higher Dex. I was assuming that the barbarian would be focusing on the 'barbarian thang,' which works very well at two-weapon power attacks and focusing on Strength.

See, a monk is better off going weapon finesse (IMO), where Dex helps both AC and attacks. A barbarian is better off going Strength, though a little Dex is good. That's why I did the layout above.

If you ignore the focus of a character, well, you could have a wizard in full plate at 10th level, with some Dex and lots of AC enchantments. Any character can do that. The point is what pursuits fit best with the class' strengths.

And then there's the saves (and still mind) and evasion (improved by 10th) that a barbarian doesn't get, plus whatever resistance items the character has. The barbarian does have DR, true.

 

[Will]

Darnit. Repeat, sorry.

 

[CPXB]

CPXB/two: Yes, the barbarian could have better AC with a shield or higher Dex. I was assuming that the barbarian would be focusing on the 'barbarian thang,' which works very well at two-weapon power attacks and focusing on Strength.

See, a monk is better off going weapon finesse (IMO), where Dex helps both AC and attacks. A barbarian is better off going Strength, though a little Dex is good. That's why I did the layout above.

If you ignore the focus of a character, well, you could have a wizard in full plate at 10th level, with some Dex and lots of AC enchantments. Any character can do that. The point is what pursuits fit best with the class' strengths.

And then there's the saves (and still mind) and evasion (improved by 10th) that a barbarian doesn't get, plus whatever resistance items the character has. The barbarian does have DR, true.

I wasn't saying that the barbarian shouldn't play to his strengths, and I was going *with* your assumptions -- but one of the class features of the barbarian is the ability to use a shield. Using a shield *is* one of the barbarian's strengths. And damage reduction most CERTAINLY is defensive in nature, as applicable to straight fighting and I pointed out you left out DR out of the mix.

And if you bring up saves, its fair to bring up the barbarian's offense. While your eighth level monk is doing around 1d8 damage, the barbarian is doing 1d12+9 points of damage -- putting something down fast is a wonderful way to avoid taking damage, and the barbarian will be putting stuff down roughly four times as fast as the monk. *Literally four times as fast*. Cutting down the length of time something can attack you could be construed as defensive.

Also, hit points. Sure, the monk doesn't take as much damage from many spells due to evasion -- but the barbarian just has a huge pile of hit points that the monk doesn't have. Not to mention uncanny dodge, which means sneak attacks won't be taking down Mr. Barbarian, no they will not -- and they do still threaten monks.

While the monk is strong compared to the barbarian in the Will department in particular, a low strength monk simply cannot remotely compare to a barbarian in a fight. The have very modest to non-existent bonuses to defense while the barbarian is so overwhelming in offense that the fights will be much, much shorter in comparison.