Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Scion]

Characters who specialize are generally, by default, much stronger in d&d. They have bigger weaknesses yes, but the rest of the party is there to help shore those up.

The monk is a generalist at heart, he is pretty good at a lot of things, but excells at nothing. Well, nothing other than being able to survive. He should usually be the first one in the thick, and the last one to fall, but while there he will likely be doing the least. That is just how the character class is.

For what it does it is very good, but trying to push it outside of its comfort zone and there will be problems.

As for combat vs primary casters it is always a sticky field. They each have their strengths and weaknesses, saying which is 'better' tends to be so subjective as to be useless. Pick a spot and then it can be debated, an overall view is very difficult.

Barb? he gets great combat stuff, and a good amount of noncombat stuff. He is a pretty good class.

Ranger? 3.5 version is probably bordering on broken it is so good

fighter? what fighter.

Druid/cleric? definate powerhouses, they can be the best at whatever they choose, but it takes all of their abilities to do so. Generally they pick one area and excel at that, as most characters do.

monk? highest defense of everyone, moderate offense. Again, they should always be the first in and last down.

To make the monk a powerhouse combatent takes chooseing the right prc's and feat choices. Along with all of your gear going towards that one thing. You will probably not, and in some ways should not, match a primary fighter type. But you will be able to hang in there.

So for suggestions? I dont know, the monk isnt a primary combatant, he is a 'I am good at just about everything, especially surviving' kind of guy. Devote your feats and money to becomeing better at whatever you want to be good at, it will take a bit of time, but you can do it eventually. Keep an eye out for prc's which give up something you dont care about and gain things that you do care about.

hope that helps

 

[Spatula]

How were your monk's ability scores generated? Average rolls or average point buys (~25) produce rather poor monks IMO because they need so many decent stats to perform well compared to most other classes.

I'm rather surprised the summoned animals did so well against the giants. The main drawback to most animals in combat is their relatively poor ACs. A giant using Power Attack should have been able to crush the creatures without much effort. And while the animals can close with opponents quickly, they don't have a way to avoid triggering attacks of opportunity when closing with the giants (whereas a monk would presumably have Tumble and/or Spring Attack).

EDIT: An example...

Druid summons dire wolf. Dire wolf charges hill giant. Hill giant gets AoO, uses 2 pts PA, and hits (+14 atk vs 14 AC), doing 23 damage on average. That's a little more than half the dire wolf's HP right there. Now, the wolf has a 60% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of tripping with a hit (both creatures are the same size & strength). But even on the ground (-4 to hit IIRC), the hill giant only misses on a 1 or a 2 without using any PA.

Against multiple hill giants, the dire wolf shouldn't have lasted more than a round. The lion's AC is one better but it only has 3/4 the wolf's HP, making it even more fragile.

 

[CPXB]

OOC: CPXB, could you provide a little info on your monk? Feats? Ability Scores? Equipment?

You may want to speak to your DM about this issue. Some problems in this area arise due to DM tendencies. DMs that tend to follow the same tactics with similar creatures tend to allow some classes to shine, while limiting the effectiveness of other classes.

The monk is very well suited to getting to the back rank of enemies and dealing with a single, powerful foe. His tumble and movement make it child's play for a monk to zoom to the back row of the enemy. If the DM tends to use single creatures (1 hill giant, then another hill giant, etc ...), this advantage goes to waste.

The monk's stun attack or grapple is best used to negate an enemy spellcaster. If the DM tends to avoid enemy spellcasters, you can't get the most out of this ability.

My DM and I talk a lot -- we live together and all. We've actually talked about the tactics thing, how when she is rushed for time she'll select certain sorts of critters 'cause she doesn't have to become familiar with all their special abilities. Which does mean that there aren't many spellcasters. However, even many of the critters who cast spells and have lots of spell-like abilities are often quite good at saving against things.

However, in my experience so far, the monk doesn't need to penetrate the enemy lines to attack the spellcasters -- the other spellcasters are quite capable of sending their attacks through the ranks to get the spellcasters. While, of course, grappling with a spellcaster is particularly effective, so is just killing them -- or, to the point of this particular thread, surrounding them with summoned animals also works, and much better than my monk can do it.

Anyway, here's the C-sheet:

Rashad Daktari aka Adamantine Moneybags
Mnk 6th
Medium-sized Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (54 hp)
Speed: 50 ft
AC: 21 (+4 Dex, +5 Wis, +1 bracers of armor, +1 monk), flat-footed 16, touch 19
Initiative: +4 (Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+8
Attacks: Unarmed +10 (1d8+5) or sling +9 (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Unarmed +10 (1d8+5) or flurry of blows +9/+9 (1d8+5) or sling +9 (1d4+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), unarmed strike
Special Qualities: AC bonus, evasion, purity of body, slow fall (30 ft.), still mind
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +10
Alignment: Lawful good
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 13
Skills: Balance +9/15, Climb +6/10, Diplomacy +0/3, Escape Artist +6/10, Jump +9/23, Perform +6/7, Sense Motive +9/14, Spot +9/14, Tumble +9/15
Feats: Agile Riposte, Deflect Arrows (b), Dodge, Improved Trip (b), Knockdown, Stunning Blow (DC 18, 6/day) (b), Weapon Focus (Unarmed)

Possessions: (light encumbrance 76 lbs.; current encumbrance 34 lbs.) gauntlets of ogre power, bracers of armor +1, ring of magic fang +1, periapt of wisdom +2, dagger (1 lbs.), monk's outfit (2 lbs.), backpack (2 lbs.), bedroll (5 lbs.), winter blanket (3 lbs.), bullseye lantern with continual flame (3 lbs.), hempen rope 50' (10 lbs.), 2 entertainer's outfits (8 lbs.), 360 gp

As you can see, this is actually a pretty extraordinary character.

 

[CPXB]

monk? highest defense of everyone, moderate offense. Again, they should always be the first in and last down.

To make the monk a powerhouse combatent takes chooseing the right prc's and feat choices. Along with all of your gear going towards that one thing. You will probably not, and in some ways should not, match a primary fighter type. But you will be able to hang in there.

So for suggestions? I dont know, the monk isnt a primary combatant, he is a 'I am good at just about everything, especially surviving' kind of guy. Devote your feats and money to becomeing better at whatever you want to be good at, it will take a bit of time, but you can do it eventually. Keep an eye out for prc's which give up something you dont care about and gain things that you do care about.

hope that helps

In my experience, monks don't have particularly good AC. My monk's AC is 21. Its pretty easy for a fighter, cleric or paladin -- any heavy armor class -- to get that good an AC. And, on whole, the monk will have fewer hit points than either the fighter or paladin. Hell, right now in the game I'm in the bard has roughly the same AC as my monk -- literally just one point lower. So the notion that the monk is the last man standing just doesn't fit my experience very well.

And what everyone has said is, y'know, that the monk is a "generalist" or "second best" at things -- and I can't think of another class (other than bard, that is designed for that and has much, much greater general utility as a support character than a monk) that is designed that way.

I think I'm coming to the conclusion that monks just really have no place in D&D. Which makes me sad 'cause I'm all about the fu.

 

[ForceUser]

What is a monk's element, then?

Seriously, the druid is also a "second string melee character" -- except this second string melee character is better at melee (transforming into, let's say, a lion or a brown bear) and has excellent spellcasting abilities.

Seriously, its looking as though my character has no legitimate place in this party.

Monks are mage-killers. That is their element. They are about precision targetting, not broad damage output. Look at their abilities: fast movement, stunning fist (Fort save, a mage weakness), immune to poison, immune to disease, they can heal themselves, they have great saving throws, improved evasion, Spell Resistance, they can D-door...if ever there was a class designed to withstand and demolish spell casters, this is it. That's their gig.

As a monk you should steer yourself to wasting mooks and spellcasting foes. Leave the hill giants for the fighters to tank (but flank off them).

I play a monk. This is my approach: fighters are blunt instruments, monks are a surgeon's scalpel.

 

[Spatula]

"Last man standing" isn't just about AC & hp. The monk's saves, special abilities, speed, maneuverability, and self-sufficiency can make them hard to take out of a fight.

 

[Saeviomagy]

As you can see, this is actually a pretty extraordinary character.

Albeit run by someone with no concept of what tactics are.

You have only one thing that you can do. Punch people.

All your items are focussed towards... punching people.

It's the same for summoned monsters, shapeshifted druids and giants. All they do is hit people.

The difference is that a monk has the potential to be more than that. The monk can use ranged weapons for a start.

I mean honestly - who builds a combatant and then doesn't buy a single ranged weapon?

Finally - look at your skills. Balance. Jump. Climb. Tumble.

And what did you do? Ran up to the giant and pounded it.

Also note - your druid is now out of spells. By the book, you should be having around about 5 encounters a day. Druid's not looking too good now, is he?

Finally - if you'd had a slow fighter in the party... perhaps you should wait for the giant to close so everyone is in the fight? That's just a little bit of tactics for you...

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Its never a good idea to write off a class as useless because of only a single encounter.

 

[Scion]

In my experience, monks don't have particularly good AC. My monk's AC is 21.

Potential best ac there is a difference.

Say you have an arcane caster, everyday they cast a mage armor on you at the beginning of the day. Now you are at 25, for a very long time. They cast cats grace on you (as it is the only enhancement you are missing) for an extra probably 2 points, now you are at 27.

27 for a 6th level character is definately not shabby!

Later on in the game you pick up some bracers of armor, get a few more items for boosting up ac in other ways, +6 item to wis and dex, and your ac can be the highest out of any other character class.

Potentials

 

[Spatula]

Albeit run by someone with no concept of what tactics are.

You have only one thing that you can do. Punch people.

All your items are focussed towards... punching people.

It's the same for summoned monsters, shapeshifted druids and giants. All they do is hit people.

The difference is that a monk has the potential to be more than that. The monk can use ranged weapons for a start.

I mean honestly - who builds a combatant and then doesn't buy a single ranged weapon?

Uh, what? He has a ranged weapon.

Finally - look at your skills. Balance. Jump. Climb. Tumble.

And what did you do? Ran up to the giant and pounded it.

Yes, he obviously should have jumped onto the giant, or climbed up the giant, *then* pounded it.