Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Spatula]

Actually, shield is the spell that seems to do the most for my monk, but the sorcerer wasn't there and would have been doing his own thing.

Shield is a personal-only spell - the sorcerer can't cast it on your monk, he can only cast it on himself.

 

[Will]

IMO, if you want a more kung fu-ish monk, your best bet is to take only a single level of monk and the rest fighter (or barbarian, even... , and see if the DM will allow you to take Improved Natural Weapon as a feat. Maybe some rogue levels, too.

Mnk 1 will give you the basics - special unarmed attacks, shuriken use, Wis-tied AC, and so forth. Fighter levels will give you flexibility in feats and hit points. Rogue levels will give you a number of useful things, including sneak attack damage. Winning initiative and using shuriken... fun fun.

If your DM is very flexible, recrafting the monk class might also be useful. Trade special abilities. Give up some of the cruft you don't ever plan on using, or don't find interesting, for things like sneak attack damage or bonus fighter feats. I'm thinking of UA's variant classes as a basic model.

Heck, how about a monk with some paladin stuff?

I also second looking at Vow of Poverty. One of my favorite bits of Book of Exalted Deeds.

 

[Coredump]

Geez... is there any cheese and crackers.. or only whine?

Now, lets see about this encounter. I am not sure how it happened the way you described.

Assuming you rush in for battle, you get there one or two round ahead of the Dire Wolf. So you get one or two attacks first.

First round the Wolf attacks, the Giant gets an AoO (Giants BAB is greater than AC, instahit.) Assuming a few points of Power attack, over half the hitpoints are gone.
The wolf attacks *once* and has a 50/50 chance of hitting
The giant attacks the wolf, and if power attack, kills the wolf, and tries to hit you with the second attack. Even without PA, he kills the wolf with the second attack of the round.
(you say the wolf can trip 'consistently' First, it should be dead after one round. Second, it has only a 60% hit chance, and then a 50% trip chance. If consistent is 30%..... And the giant is almost as dangerous prone. (still hit the wolf on a 2)

Next round the lion show up, same thing (only worse). AoO does almost 60-75% of HP. Next attack will kill it. (even without PA, two attacks will be two hits, will be one dead lion)

How is the lion getting 5 attacks? Every round? How is the lion hitting with the bite at only a +2? (that is a lot of 18's) And how in the world is getting the bite, *and* winning the grapple, *and* hitting with the rake??

And the second giant? Why did he close at all? If the animals were that effective, throw rocks. Kill the dumb animals. Heck, if it had been 15 seconds later, both animals would have been gone.

And even if the animals survived the first giant, the second one gets the AoO's also. And that would kill both animals.

Gee *you* would survive, because a monk can *tumble*. What a cool advantage you have. And while it is easy to hit you also... it is much harder than the insta hits against the animals. (Even prone, the giant hits on a 2 or 3)
Plus, the druid used both 3rd level spells, and 2 of the 3 second level spells. Pretty much shot the wad. What happens if another *anything* shows up?
What happens if the second giant stopped to tie his shoe, and is 30 seconds later? What happens when the attack entails sneaking somewhere?

The druid trick is a one trick pony. It is short lived, with low AC. Same as a beginning mage with only one magic missle. When it is gone... it is gone. Monks are monks all day long. Just as useful in evening as in morning. Even if you fought the giants in the morning. The druid is just short of a spectator after that fight. (actually, I am not sure how you all were not dead... but that is another issue.)


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[Coredump]

Good lord, and that lion! It pounced the second giant and did something like thirty-five or forty points of damage in one turn!

Tell the player of the druid to go buy a lotto ticket.
*Assuming* the two +7 claws hit *and* the +2 bite hits *and* if the bite hits the Grapple check is won *and* both +7 rake attacks hit. And assuming the 4d4 and 1d8 all roll totally max. Then you get 40 points of damage.

Now, ignoring any additional benefits (from the bard, or whatever) but also ignoring needing to beat a giant on a grapple check.... that equates to a .0001875% chance of success. So sure, I would feel inferior too if the person I was compared to could pull that off on a regular basis.

.

 

[CPXB]

Geez... is there any cheese and crackers.. or only whine?

Now, lets see about this encounter. I am not sure how it happened the way you described.

Assuming you rush in for battle, you get there one or two round ahead of the Dire Wolf. So you get one or two attacks first.

First round the Wolf attacks, the Giant gets an AoO (Giants BAB is greater than AC, instahit.) Assuming a few points of Power attack, over half the hitpoints are gone.
The wolf attacks *once* and has a 50/50 chance of hitting
The giant attacks the wolf, and if power attack, kills the wolf, and tries to hit you with the second attack. Even without PA, he kills the wolf with the second attack of the round.
(you say the wolf can trip 'consistently' First, it should be dead after one round. Second, it has only a 60% hit chance, and then a 50% trip chance. If consistent is 30%..... And the giant is almost as dangerous prone. (still hit the wolf on a 2)

Next round the lion show up, same thing (only worse). AoO does almost 60-75% of HP. Next attack will kill it. (even without PA, two attacks will be two hits, will be one dead lion)

How is the lion getting 5 attacks? Every round? How is the lion hitting with the bite at only a +2? (that is a lot of 18's) And how in the world is getting the bite, *and* winning the grapple, *and* hitting with the rake??

And the second giant? Why did he close at all? If the animals were that effective, throw rocks. Kill the dumb animals. Heck, if it had been 15 seconds later, both animals would have been gone.

And even if the animals survived the first giant, the second one gets the AoO's also. And that would kill both animals.

Gee *you* would survive, because a monk can *tumble*. What a cool advantage you have. And while it is easy to hit you also... it is much harder than the insta hits against the animals. (Even prone, the giant hits on a 2 or 3)
Plus, the druid used both 3rd level spells, and 2 of the 3 second level spells. Pretty much shot the wad. What happens if another *anything* shows up?
What happens if the second giant stopped to tie his shoe, and is 30 seconds later? What happens when the attack entails sneaking somewhere?

The druid trick is a one trick pony. It is short lived, with low AC. Same as a beginning mage with only one magic missle. When it is gone... it is gone. Monks are monks all day long. Just as useful in evening as in morning. Even if you fought the giants in the morning. The druid is just short of a spectator after that fight. (actually, I am not sure how you all were not dead... but that is another issue.)


.

This must be some form of hazing, to prove I know the basics or something. OK.

You assumed too much. I won't correct your assumptions because, frankly, your arrogant tone doesn't inspire me to do so. Needless to say your presumptive description of the fight is riddled with inaccuracies -- unsurprising as you were not there, and only surprising because you chose to assume so much with so little.

However, lions, when they charge can pounce. The lion pounced twice, each time getting five attacks. Its right there in the MM if you care to look. The lion hit because the dire wolf had good luck knocking the giants down.

And the reason we're not dead is because of the druid's menagerie. Covered that.

 

[CPXB]

IMO, if you want a more kung fu-ish monk, your best bet is to take only a single level of monk and the rest fighter (or barbarian, even... , and see if the DM will allow you to take Improved Natural Weapon as a feat. Maybe some rogue levels, too.

Mnk 1 will give you the basics - special unarmed attacks, shuriken use, Wis-tied AC, and so forth. Fighter levels will give you flexibility in feats and hit points. Rogue levels will give you a number of useful things, including sneak attack damage. Winning initiative and using shuriken... fun fun.

If your DM is very flexible, recrafting the monk class might also be useful. Trade special abilities. Give up some of the cruft you don't ever plan on using, or don't find interesting, for things like sneak attack damage or bonus fighter feats. I'm thinking of UA's variant classes as a basic model.

Heck, how about a monk with some paladin stuff?

I also second looking at Vow of Poverty. One of my favorite bits of Book of Exalted Deeds.

Thanks for the suggestions. The DM and I are discussing it.

Alas, we do not have the Book of Exalted Deeds and one of our friends tells us that the Vow of Poverty is sorta overpowered for monks . . . however, since my gripe is, essentially, that my monk is *underpowered* (vis-a-vis the other characters) I might want to look again, huh?

 

[CPXB]

Tell the player of the druid to go buy a lotto ticket.
*Assuming* the two +7 claws hit *and* the +2 bite hits *and* if the bite hits the Grapple check is won *and* both +7 rake attacks hit. And assuming the 4d4 and 1d8 all roll totally max. Then you get 40 points of damage.

Now, ignoring any additional benefits (from the bard, or whatever) but also ignoring needing to beat a giant on a grapple check.... that equates to a .0001875% chance of success. So sure, I would feel inferior too if the person I was compared to could pull that off on a regular basis.

.

And . . . the giant was still prone. If you hadn't assumed and instead asked, you probably wouldn't be looking so foolish, right now.

You also need to go check what pounce means. Again. The lion was also buffed, BTW. Which, if you'd asked, you might know.

 

[Coredump]

Needless to say your presumptive description of the fight is riddled with inaccuracies -- unsurprising as you were not there, and only surprising because you chose to assume so much with so little.

You have spent 3 pages talking about this.... There isn't much left to assume

However, lions, when they charge can pounce.

Yes, they can pounce, which means that instead of being restricted to one attack (ala charge rules) they can take a full attack. This does not mean it automatically gets to rake. The rules for rake state that it needs to succeed at a bite, and a grapple check.

The lion pounced twice, each time getting five attacks.

I will assume one pounce for each giant. Which as I understand it, means two AoO's. That is a dead lion before the second pounce. (Charge has no AoO, but movement through a threatened area does.) and the lion hits suck, see below.

The lion hit because the dire wolf had good luck knocking the giants down.

VERY good luck, about a 9% chance of getting both of them. Plus he should have been dead from the two AoO. (granted, some of these AoO may overlap...) still have a hard time hitting see below.

You also need to go check what pounce means. Again.

I means (again) that the lion gets to make a full attack, not just a single attack. But it still has to land the bite and grapple for the rake.

And . . . the giant was still prone. The lion was also buffed, BTW. .

Yeah, I mentioned that it might be. So lets assume it is, you didn't mention how much, so lets assume the bard was singing so +1/+1, and a +4 because *both* giants were knocked prone. And further, lets assume it somehow survived the multiple 'instahits' the giant could unleash. And lets take 39 pts damage. With the +5 to hit and +1 damage... that brings it to a 0.17% chance (0.015% if you also factor the two trips)
And again, this ignores the grapple check that the lion would likely not win.

Every AoO or attack from the giant is going to hit. (The second attack, while prone, still hits on a 7) how are these animals surviving?

You can gripe all you want. But the druid trick is a one shot, and they should have been fairly ineffective. While your monk would have been more useful, and for a longer period of time. But hey, complain away....

.

 

[Camarath]

Yes, they can pounce, which means that instead of being restricted to one attack (ala charge rules) they can take a full attack. This does not mean it automatically gets to rake. The rules for rake state that it needs to succeed at a bite, and a grapple check.

From SRD under Lion.

Pounce (Ex): If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

 

[Tatsukun]

Monks are very good at attacking large numbers of small monsters. A monk's huge number of attacks can clean up a lot of goblins/orcs/humans/whatever.

They lag behind when fighting one large monster, or something with DR.

Monks do have MADD (multiple ability dependency disorder) really badly. I can really see an ability for them that allows them to add their wisdom to damage (paired with weapon finesse, they don't need strength).

But, I think they have a great synergy with sorcerer/wizard. I ran a monk with 1 level of sorcerer, and he was a great shock troop. He could move in (a long way) and use a wand (he had one in each hand at all times). He was faster than anyone else, was nearly immune to magic (best saves, evasion). His general tactic was to sprint in, blast some people with a few shots with the wands, then tackle any mages he could find.

At level 2, with mage armor, shield, a mage/monk with a 16 wis and a 16 dex is at AC 24. Add protection from evil (or whatever), and you get 26.

Not bad.

-Tatsu