Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[hong]

To add to their combat abilities, the monk gains bonus feats, great defensive abilities (AC, evasion, immunities, etc ...), self healing, spell resistance, movement (including D-door as a supernatural ability), and a variety of other abilities that add to their effectiveness.

Effectiveness != spotlight time.

The monk will live through many things that will stop a fighter dead in his tracks. This is not the issue.

 

[hong]

Right. Most fighters are tools when attack dice aren't rolling. Monks are more social characters: tongue of the sun and moon.

... which is a 17th level ability. I'd hate to have to wait 17 levels just to exercise my social skills, especially when tongues has been available since 5th or 7th level for the wiz and cleric (and 4th for the bard).

Face it: the monk is basically a permanent second-stringer. You _can_ find yourself a niche in the group, but you have to work at it, and hope nobody else comes along to take it away.

 

[CPXB]

Right. Most fighters are tools when attack dice aren't rolling. Monks are more social characters: tongue of the sun and moon.

The druid's problem, of course, is low AC.

Oooooh. At something like eighteenth level they get to talk to people! Tongue of the sun and moon is their first and only even vaguely social ability.

Which provides an interesting comparison -- compare both the fighting acumen and social acumen of a *paladin* to that of a monk. The paladin will fight better and talk better.

 

[CPXB]

In the end, you may decide that the monk is weaker in combat than other classes. Fine. I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. The monk can serve as a masterful scout and quality diplomat, two important noncombat activities. The greater the level of noncombat abilities possessed by the PC, the more you must diminish their combat abilities to keep them in balance.

As a final note: I've played a lot of D&D since 3.0 came out. I've seen more than my share of monks. It isn't always obvious that they are an effective class, but I promise you that they are in most games I've seen. As for the druid ... in favorable circumstances, they are a *very* strong class, but when their Acheillies heel begins to show, they can be awfully vulnerable.

A masterful scout when they're eleventh level or more. Until then, any locked door stops them. A long time to wait to be a *scout*.

Quality diplomat? You're actually suggesting that monks need to put a decent ability score in Charisma, too? I guess that means they have to get good abilities scores in *everything*, now, to be a good character. Tho', just on the face of it, the bard or paladin is going to be the character you go to in social situations -- indeed, I know in the D&D game I'm in that's precisely what happens. "Oh, a social situation. Send in the bard." Its sorta their thing. Same with paladins -- "Pally, go make that diplomacy check!" Even sorcerers, now that Bluff is a class skill, can go pretty far -- farther than monks with their frequently abyssmal Cha scores, at any rate.

Even the langauge you use to describe monks -- "it isn't always obvious that they're effective" -- compared to finding a druid's "Achilles heel". Monks, not obviously effective; with druids you have to find their Achilles heel. Which I parse as -- a game has got to be specially designed to make a monk effective, and it has to be specially designed to make a druid not be effective. I think that's a fair assessement of the situation in any event.

 

[hong]

A masterful scout when they're eleventh level or more. Until then, any locked door stops them.

And after they reach 11th level, _two_ locked doors will stop them!

 

[ForceUser]

Oooooh. At something like eighteenth level they get to talk to people! Tongue of the sun and moon is their first and only even vaguely social ability.

Which provides an interesting comparison -- compare both the fighting acumen and social acumen of a *paladin* to that of a monk. The paladin will fight better and talk better.

Actually, that ability was just to illustrate my point. Don't forget that monks have Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion) and Sense Motive on their class skill list. This is what makes them social characters; tongue of the sun & monn is just the icing on the cake. For that matter, like the other second-rank fighters (rogues, rangers), monks have Listen and Spot on the class lists as well.

But at this point I think I'll let this conversation be. I've made the points I want to make, and I feel like some of you guys are determined to be unsatisfied regardless of the points those of us in support of monks bring up. I am enjoying my own monk, and that's what's important to me. If you're not satisfied by the class, CPXB, my advice is to find a character concept you will enjoy and play that.

 

[Scion]

While there are threads about casters being too powerful there are also threads about noncasters being too powerful.

At higher levels SR is in just about everyones bag of tricks, along with saves, high hp, and lots of other gimicks that pop up with increased power.

I have been in games where playing a high level caster meant that you were relegated to buffing and debuffing, nothing else the high level caster could do would matter in a meaningful way. Nothing like what those noncasters and their pesky attacks could do, all day long.

Where as the casters need intermitant breaks for long periods of time to get all of their abilities back, the noncasters can go for longer periods of time, and generally need shorter amounts of break time. There is a lot to be said for that.

The monk straddles both in some ways. He has a lot of good attacks (+15/+15/+15/+10/+5 is nice! and with a single feat you can turn it into +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3, which isnt shabby either ), but some of his abilities only refresh everyday. But he has evasive powers all over the place.

His abilities make it hard for him to really stand out and shine in some games, and all too easy in others. I dont really see the problem, it is a very good character class for what it does, but trying to make it do something else makes it not quite as good. No surprise there.

Still, play to a characters strengths, and the dm should do as well on occasion, and their weaknesses. This has to be done to some degree for 'all' character classes no matter what they are. Some dm's find it easier for certain play styles, other find other things easier Hope it works out.

 

[Will]

Some people seem to be making no effort to understand my posts before responding, as I find myself having to back up and repeat myself or clarify points I thought were very obvious.

Maybe I'm being unclear.

In any case, I think I've made the points I wanted to make. Ciao.

 

[Hervis]

Let me describe the situation:

I play in this weekly game that's a pretty typical D&D game. The party consists, currently, of my character, a sixth level monk who is fairly twinked out for combat, a fifth level druid, a fifth level bard and a sixth level sorcerer. The druid has summon monster I & II and the druid, obviously, has wide access to summon nature's ally spells. Our characters are pretty beefy.

The last session the sorcerer's player wasn't there. We went on without him. So it was my monk, the bard and druid.

The party is in a village. There was some role-playing stuff that is largely irrelevant to this discussion. Then the village was attacked by a hill giant. Well, since we're heroes we give out our battle cry and attack. Adventuring is our core business, one might say.

During the fight, I rolled typically well. Given the AC of the giants, 20, and that I was at +10 or +11 to hit, I hit about half the time, including two stunning blows. Natch, none of the stunning blows worked against the good Fort save, high Con giant, but I had to try. Equally obviously, I did not try to use my improved trip on the giant -- bigger *and* stronger. Better just to deal damage, I figured.

So, to emphasize, I was doing pretty normal in the fight.

Enter the now fifth level druid. She's got two third level spells, due to high Wis. So, she summons a dire wolf.

As many hit points. Hits more often. Hits harder.

Then she summons a LION. Lion pounces -- FIVE ATTACKS.

Naturally, her animal companion is in the fight, too. As many hit points, same AC, almost as good to hit and damage.

The fight goes on. We put down one giant. Another appears. Add in two dire badgers.

See me: feeling useless. The dire wolf and the lion damn well ruled that fight -- the wolf could fairly consistently trip the giants, too. So not only was it doing more damage than my monk, the think was better at tripping than my monk! Good lord, and that lion! It pounced the second giant and did something like thirty-five or forty points of damage in one turn! The druid's menagerie did well over sixty points of damage in one turn to the second giant.

I was pretty seriously bummed out. The druid is able to summon critters that are simply better at fighting than my character -- and she can keep summoning them. And it only gets worse from here. I dread summon nature's ally IV -- I looked at those critters and what they'll do in terms of damage compared to a seventh or eighth level monk. It is simply not pretty.

So, like, is my monk irrelevant to the game or am I and the GM missing something?

I think the issue here is actually the makeup of the encounter. Anytime you are fighting a small number of opponents (in this case is sounds like no more than one at a time) the druid will become very dargerous. Especially if he has you to keep the Giants off him long enough to summon the cavalry. If you had been fighting a equal CR of gnolls for example (how many would that be? 8 I think) your druid would have been in more serious trouble. Gnolls use bows. In addition he probably would have gotten off one summon spell (maybe if they didn't shoot him) before he had a pair of 300 lb gnolls on him. Leaving you the other 6 of course. In this encounter, the druid's abilities don't look as strong.

Remember your roll when facing a small number of powerfull opponents. The druid is better equiped for this situation and you should concentrate on making sure he/she has the time and space that they need to get their spells of. When the opponents who are more susceptable to your higher number of attacks and stunning come around, your monk is really going to shine. Also, next time you need to sneak up and disable a guard be glad you are a monk. This is your bread and butter.

 

[CPXB]

Quick comparison time:

Rashad Daktari aka Adamantine Moneybags
Mnk 6th
Medium-sized Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (54 hp)
Speed: 50 ft
AC: 21 (+4 Dex, +5 Wis, +1 bracers of armor, +1 monk), flat-footed 16, touch 19
Initiative: +4 (Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+8
Attacks: Unarmed +10 (1d8+5, crit 19-20) or masterwork sling +9 (1d4+4) or masterwork shuriken +9 (1d2+4)
Full Attack: Unarmed +10 (1d8+5, crit 19-20) or flurry of blows +9/+9 (1d8+5) or sling +9 (1d4+4) or shuriken +9 (1d2+4) or flurry of blows shuriken +8/+8 (1d2+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), unarmed strike 1d8
Special Qualities: AC bonus, evasion, purity of body, slow fall (30 ft.), still mind
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +10
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 13
Skills: Balance +9/15, Climb +6/10, Diplomacy +0/3, Escape Artist +6/10, Jump +9/23, Perform +6/7, Sense Motive +9/14, Spot +9/14, Tumble +9/15
Feats: Agile Riposte, Deflect Arrows (b), Dodge, Improved Trip (b), Knockdown, Stunning Blow (DC 18, 6/day) (b), Weapon Focus (Unarmed)

Possessions: (light encumbrance 76 lbs.; current encumbrance 34 lbs.) gauntlets of ogre power, bracers of armor +1, ring of magic fang +1, periapt of wisdom +2, masterwork sling (1 lbs.), 10 sling bullets (10 lbs.), 20 masterwork shuriken, dagger (1 lbs.), monk's outfit (2 lbs.), backpack (2 lbs.), bedroll (5 lbs.), winter blanket (3 lbs.), bullseye lantern with continual flame (3 lbs.), silk rope 50' (1 lbs.), 2 entertainer's outfits (8 lbs.), 4079 gp

OR --

Pally the Paladin
Pal 6th
Medium-sized humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 6d10 + 18 (68 hp)
Spd: 20 ft
AC: 21 (armor +9, deflection +1), flat-footed 20, touch 12
Init: +1
BAB/Grapple: +6/+11
Attacks: +1 greatsword +13 melee (1d12+8, crit 19-20) or masterwork composite bow +8 ranged (1d8+5, crit x3)
Full Attack: +1 greatsword +13/+8 (1d12+8, crit 19-20) or masterwork composite bow +8/+3 (1d8+5, crit x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Smite evil 2/day, spells, turn undead
Special Qualities: Aura of courage, aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, divine health, lay on hands (30 hp/day), remove disease 1/week
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +9
Alignment: Lawful good
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 20
Skills: Diplomacy +9/16, Heal +9/11, Knowledge (religion) +9/11, Ride +9/10, Sense Motive +9/11
Feats: Cleave, Mounted combat, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword)

Possessions: Gauntlets of ogre power, plate armor +1, +1 greatsword, cloak of charisma +2, ring of protection +1, masterwork composite bow (+5)

Spells: 1st -- Divine favor, Protection from Evil; caster level 3rd

**

Pally has an AC one lower -- which I could have rectified, obviously, by having Pally have a shield, obviously -- but look at the damage! He hits more often and does, per hit, five more points of damage! That's even before the greatsword Power Attack -- -1 to hit for +2 damage.

The fabled "multiple strike" ability of the monk is herein revealed for a lie. At this level, Pally has the same "multiple strike" capability as Rashad. No two-weapon fighting, nothing funny, just a straight greatsword.

OK. Let's look at special abilities. Oh, no! Pally has more of them! AND he has spells -- sure, not many, but . . . what? He can increase his fighting ability even MORE?! Yep. If he has any time to prepare, +1 hit and damage that stacks with everything he's got. Damage? Not a problem with Pally around! Disease? Check it -- Disease Away! How does this stack up to "slow fall", again?

Saves? Pally wins out, overall. Slightly worse at Ref and Will, much, much better at Fort.

Skills? Check the diplomacy score! He's one charming mo'fo', is our Pally. Plus good support stuff like Heal. Those two skill points a level the monk gets . . . not feeling the love from them.

On his mount, Pally is as fast as the monk!

If I was playing this C, in the future he'd be getting a celestial lion as a special mount, BTW. Sure, it'd cost a feat -- WORTH IT.

Seriously, I don't think anyone is going to be looking between these two characters, same level, same ability scores, same amount of money spent on loot, and seriously tell me that the monk stacks up against the paladin in either a fight or in terms of general usefulness. If I had to decide which of these two characters I'd have in my part, it's be blindingly obvious which one I chose.

"Hmm, the paladin does more damage, can heal and remove disease, detects evil, has more hit points . . . not to mention a great paladin mount. The monk brings to us . . . well, he's got a good Tumble score."

Paladin by a long margin, across the board.