Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Majere]

Are you kidding?
Is he immune to sonic? No?

maximized sonic-substituted Meteor Swarm followed by a quickened Power Word Kill

We are talking 20th level here, right?

The fighter will still be standing...

(To be fair, the fighter is as easily killed at that level... )

Bye
Thanee

Thats a 13th level slot..
Please leave splat books aside and keep to core rules because most broken stuff comes from splat books. I am probably wron here but using only PHB and DMG how did you get a 13th level slot ?
And you have to get throught the monks SR
And the monk gets a save for nothing fail for half
And the monk will be saving on a 2 vs the meteor storm ..

So frankly I laugh at that spell

Power kill will no longer work as the monk has more than 100 hp.
And you can PWK anyone who is a bit dented... especially mages so saying "Ha PWK" isnt much of a flaw of the class. Over half the core classes will have "low" hp and be vulnerable to a PWK once bruised.

 

[Majere]

Nice monk, however using that shield disables most of your monk abilities, like flurry, wis bonus to ac, etc. Oops.

Well that is open to debate
The text in the SRD (Which is all I have Im afraid) simply says unarmoured. To me that means not wearing any armor. Im not entirely sure how having something floating infront of you counts as armoured.
Would you count mage armor as armoured?
Would you count the shield spell as armoured
Rinf of force shield ? (Is that the right name ?)

It would seem a bit unfair to the monk if you did.
Maybe in the actualyl books there is a better definition of armoured, but I certainly wouldnt count an animated shield as armoured. It doesnt interfere with the monk in anyway, he isnt carrying it and it moves out of his way when he attacks.

 

[Will]

Animated shields still incur all restrictions associated with shield use, except solely that you don't have to tie up a hand to wield it.

Penalties, restrictions, proficiency, all apply.

 

[Thanee]

Thats a 13th level slot.
Please leave splat books aside and keep to core rules because most broken stuff comes from splat books. I am probably wron here but using only PHB and DMG how did you get a 13th level slot ?

Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell / Quicken Spell (both in the DMG 3.5 and easily available to a 20th level character).

And you have to get throught the monks SR

Correct. But that's pretty easily done.

And the monk gets a save for nothing fail for half
And the monk will be saving on a 2 vs the meteor storm
So frankly I laugh at that spell

For a very short time, tho, since the spell has no save if used right.

And you can PWK anyone who is a bit dented... especially mages so saying "Ha PWK" isnt much of a flaw of the class. Over half the core classes will have "low" hp and be vulnerable to a PWK once bruised.

Well a 2nd Meteor Swarm would do the trick, too.

And the point was to illustrate, that the fighter could survive things the monk cannot - even a highly tweaked defensive monk like yours above.

Bye
Thanee

 

[hong]

To give hong something 20th level to get his teeth into.

Are you still here, RIFTS boy?

Lucky thie invincible !

Lucky the useless meatshield is more like it.

Wand of Barkskin (12th) - 18k

Are you trolling again?

Shield (animated,heavy fortification (heavy))+3,
- 100k

Now I KNOW you're trolling again.

AC: 10+8(armor)+5(shield)+1(small)+1(dodge feat)+11(Dex)+8(Wis)+5(deflection)+1(insight)+1(haste)+5(Wand)+4(monk)
= 60 (55/48)

Why do you keep harping on about survivability like it was the last word in taking the spotlight, RIFTS boy?

Wheeeeeee.. and he can always go full defensive for an AC of 66 if he just wants to block a corridor or somesuch. Either way.. people gonna have trouble hitting this PONK!

Do you really think this is relevant to the issue, RIFTS boy?

In any case, try playing 20th level some time. Just as a blocked corridor is not a barrier for a 20th level party, it generally is also not a barrier for 20th level adversaries.

Try getting your fighters Ac this high
Try hitting me with your fighter

I can see it now: a 3-foot tall person standing in a corridor, yelling in a high-pitched voice, "fear me! FEEEARRR MEEE!!!"

Fort: +12+5+3+1+2 - +23 (Immune to poison,nonmagical diseases)

Horrid wilting. 'nuff said.

Failing that, power word stun. 'nuff said.

Failing that, power word blind. 'nuff said.

Magic.. what magic ?
This guy has a great chance of making any save. Even an Int 33 mage will only have a DC of 32.(With School focus) for his highest DC.
So the monk saves on a 9,4 or 2 .. and the caster only has a 50% chance of breaking SR. For the mages BEST spell
Anyone else like those odds ?

Have you played any high-level D&D, RIFTS boy?

HP 20d8+ 60 - 150 - respectable..

Oh dear.

Feats
Iron Will, Great fortitude,Lightning reflexes
Weapon focus (unarmed strike),
Dodge,Weapon finesse, Shield proficiency

Attacks
+29/+29/+29/+24/+19 2d8+3
Fists are magical,Lawful,adamantine
Stunning fist DC -28

The stunning fist DC is perhaps the only part of the build relevant to the issue of the monk's impotence in combat. However, even then, many high-CR monsters will typically have good Fort saves.

Ok so not a combat freak,

Did you fail to notice that the prime complaint about the monk is that it is _not_ a combat freak in the first place, RIFTS boy? Why do you present a build that does nothing to solve that problem? Please don't tell me you are TROLLING, because, you know, that's MY schtick.

but lets detwink a bit as our ac is so abusively high.. we can Drop the tome of Dex (+4) and the amulet of wis +6 (get back 146k) and buy an amulet of mightyfists for (97k) and a tome of Dex +2 (55k).
Swap lightning reflexes to improved critical
You ac drops by 4 points, new attack routine

+32/+32/+32/+27/+22 2d8+9 (19-20*2)

If you think this sort of damage is sufficient to solve the problem of the monk being overshadowed in combat, you're living on a different planet to me. Possibly one with cyber-knights and glitterboys.

Given that a fighter (Str33) might be throwing about an attack routine in the region of +37/+32/+27/+22 d8+3d6+18;your damage is about 1/2 while you have far superior ac and saves.
Only half the damage ? Well you are twinked out far more defensively than the fighter so it seems balanced.

Well, of course it seems that way to you, but that's because you have no understanding of what constitutes "balance" in the first place.

Monks clearly suck as I have just demonstrated.. thank you

Yes, they clearly do. Thank you indeed.

 

[hong]

And, right midstream, you use a barbarian's damage with a two handed weapon (if I read that right). Should he be using a shield or not??

Buckler.

In any case, the problem with the monk is not, as had been said already, defense/survivability. The problem is spotlight time. And here, the problem relates to how many players _desire_ to gain spotlight time. In terms of what sticks in the mind or captures the imagination, offense -- the ability to kick butt and take names -- generally takes primacy over defense -- the ability to absorb punishment and keep going. People remember the time that they did 100 points of damage with a critical hit to a BBEG. They don't remember the Fort save they made the round beforehand, to survive the finger of death that the BBEG threw at them.

Now, it's true that there's no law stating people must get their jollies out of the game in this manner. You could certainly set out to create a character that could survive any threat, but also be relatively unable to harm the opposition. If that was what you truly desired for that character, you would probably derive a lot of satisfaction from all the instakill spells and effects you survived, while the tanks and other PCs kept going down. However, this tends to be the exception to the rule. Generally speaking, what correlates most to spotlight time, as individual gamers interpret it, is the ability to kick butt.

Therefore, beyond a certain point, the ability to absorb punishment usually brings less and less satisfaction to a player, if it also means a commensurate reduction in the ability to damage the opposition. For many (if not most) people, the monk has gone beyond that point, especially if you approach it as a class meant to emulate kung-fu martial artists in pop fiction.

That's not to say that you _have_ to approach it as a class meant to emulate anything, of course. If you view the monk purely in abstract terms as a collection of abilities optimised for scouting/mage killing/flexibility/etc, then all of this is irrelevant: you just create a character designed around those schticks. You'll probably not be too fussed about lack of usefulness in combat, because you get your jollies elsewhere. However, that assumes familiarity with the class mechanics and the way D&D plays out in the first place, and requires you to set aside all the background material relating to kung-fu martial artists. I don't think it's reasonable to say that everyone should have to do this, just to derive enjoyment out of playing a base class.

Nevermind, I should have stuck with my first instinct. Ciao and good gaming.

Heh.

 

[Scion]

Buckler.

SRD:
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

So the barb wants a -1 penalty to attack and no ac bonus? Good job barb.

Monks can have plenty of spotlight time, just like anyone else. The campaign needs to be as such to allow it, just like anyone else. They have all kinds of good abilities, and trade in a bit of one sort of power for another. You dont go making a mage who has a 3 int and power attacks all of the time, they arent designed for it. In the same way you shouldnt be whining when the barbarian, whos only job is to do lots of damage, is doing more than you. Figure out what your job is supposed to be and do it, dont complain if you try to fit the square peg into the round hole.

 

[Scion]

It really sounds like the thing that would fix the monk, in a lot of peoples opinion here, would be to simply change the monks BAB from medium to good.

This would allow him an attack routine of something like +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (possibly an extra +5 at the end as well).

At this point the monk has a much better attack routine than the other fighter types, does equivalent damage, has a better ac, better saves, better speed, better defensive capabilities, and a cooler haircut.

but if that is what you all want then go for it, it definately seems like that will push the monk way over the top to me. Whatever floats your boat though I suppose.

 

[Majere]

Buckler.

In any case, the problem with the monk is not, as had been said already, defense/survivability. The problem is spotlight time.
...

Why do you keep harping on about survivability like it was the last word in taking the spotlight, RIFTS boy?

No, that is your problem hong.
Its clear that we play the game for very different reasons.
You play it so that other people turn to you and tell you how great you are, and how kick ass your character is.

I play it to spend time with my friends, chill out, and kill crap for fun and exp. Spotlight time is never a consideration when I build a character. Infact I always pick my character last so that I can look at the party and pick a class to give the party good balance.

I DO remeber the time I rolled a natural 20 to save vs aging 500 years.I DO remeber the time I manaed to go 5 rounds flanked by two drow rogues while on singe fugure HP and not get hit, even if all I did was survive.

Oh Take the monk I built (If you wont allow the shield take out the shield give him a ring of force shield and a tome of dex +% and his AC is unchanged). Apart from the fact a fighter with maxed out STR and starting STR of 18 cant hit him except on a natural 20 where as the monk will hit a maxed out fighter on a 10. Yeah monks suck in combat
The fighter will also have trouble against the stunning first dc of 28

Sure the monk might take twice as many hits, but if the enemy cant hit you that is no a problem.

As for all those 9th level spells you boasted about. How exactly is the monk doing any worse than the fighter apart from having spell resistance and better saves ?
And dont say he has less HP, because Ill ask you how you propose to hit a guy with ac 60, SR, High saves, evasion and immunity to all spells below 8th level. His touch Ac is so high even with true strike most casters cant hit him.

Monks are the most defensive melee class, and barbarians the most offensive. If you happen to think that the fact all classess dont do the same damage is broken so be it.

And please dont spout that stuff about kung-fu movies. When in those movies do you ever see bruce lee kick the ass of someone in full plate and shield with a magical flaming sword who can fly, or kick the ass of a colossal frost worm.
If anything the movies suggest you can kick the ass of lightly armoured,humanoid, unarmed mooks in a variety of interesting ways, while the enemy somehow fail to hit you for a full 45 minutes. At other times the hero is being sneaky in a ninja type way. And LO.. isnt that what the monk does ?

Majere

 

[hong]

the rest of the round.

So the barb wants a -1 penalty to attack and no ac bonus? Good job barb.

Oh, hello, Scion. Are you still here as well?

Monks can have plenty of spotlight time, just like anyone else.

For certain definitions of "spotlight time", maybe.

The campaign needs to be as such to allow it, just like anyone else.

You sound like a broken record. Is this intentional?

They have all kinds of good abilities, and trade in a bit of one sort of power for another.

They get all kinds of abilities of the wrong sort, and not enough of the right sort.

You dont go making a mage who has a 3 int and power attacks all of the time, they arent designed for it.

You also don't go making a class that clearly takes after characters who kick butt in combat, and fail to allow it to kick butt in combat.

In the same way you shouldnt be whining when the barbarian, whos only job is to do lots of damage, is doing more than you.

Non sequitur.

YES, I KNOW MSB DOES THIS BETTER THAN ME, THANKYOUVERYMUCH.

Figure out what your job is supposed to be and do it,

My job is to kick butt, just like archetypal kung-fu guys. If you fail to comprehend this, then clearly I will have to continue educating you.

dont complain if you try to fit the square peg into the round hole.

If the hole is supposed to be square in the first place, I will complain all I bloody well want. Or perhaps I won't, but then I've sworn off pimping my

Spoiler

martial artist

for Lent.