Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Geoff Watson]

Third, your arguments really took a hit in my eyes when you said you've never seen a high level monk with PA. PA is well known as the most essential melee feat in the game. *Any* melee fighter that doesn't have it is losing out. If the monks you've seen seem weak and you've never seen a monk with PA, the lack of PA is a big factor. That is like an evoker complaining that his spells don't do enough damage when he has not taken empower spell or maximize spell.

The thing is, PA is a terrible feat, unless you are using the 3.5 version with a two-handed weapon. The main reason to take it is to get Cleave, which is a nice feat.
Even if you optimise the average damage, it doesn't add much, except in extreme situations (attacker does terrible damage to begin with, or hits on a 1 or less, etc).

Hong is good enough at maths to realise this.

Geoff.

 

[shilsen]

*Wanders into thread to get daily dose of amusement at exactly how upset people can get at the opinions of complete strangers on a messageboard.*

*Reads new posts*

*Grins to self and wanders off*

 

[hong]

Hong, my friend, I'm beginning to think you like to argue ...

I couldn't do it without all my friends.

First, I'd knock it off with the anatomy comments. When a man spends that much time talking about size, it is usually a sign that he's sensitive about his own situation ...

It's true, my penis is a very sensitive spot.

Second, I provided one example where a monk could shine. I can provide many more. I'm not going to waste time doing so. Maybe I'll get around to it on a storyhour thread sometime. But, please know that this was only one incident that stood out in my memory from a vast array of examples. I've seen a half dozen monks played from 1st level to 15th level and above. Every single monk was an enjoyable character for the player. My most recent monk character (which has been inactive for a few months, unfortunately) has been a blast.

Sigh.

I never said you couldn't have fun with a monk. I said that if you want to treat a monk as a primary combatant in the party, then either you're going to be struggling, or the DM has to tailor stuff to suit. This has never been in dispute. Even your analysis supports this: with optimal PA and compared to a fighter without optimal gear, the monk still does less damage. He'll be a lot more survivable, but that's also never been in dispute.

Third, your arguments really took a hit in my eyes when you said you've never seen a high level monk with PA. PA is well known as the most essential melee feat in the game.

Where on earth did you get that? PA is good if you have a two-handed weapon. Otherwise, it's mediocre. As Geoff said, it's useful as a stepping-stone to Cleave, but I have no idea how you get "most essential melee feat". It might be _particularly_ useful for a monk (since they usually do crappy damage and so PA is proportionately better for them), but this is not an obvious fact for someone who hasn't crunched the numbers.

Fourth, I highly recommend you try my exercise and check out the effective damage dealt by different PCs - the total damage minus the damage that has no significant effect on the game. You'll find that a lot of these high damage two handed PCs are actually not doing as well as people think.

This is a silly metric. If you want to take down someone as fast as possible, you want to do as much damage to them as you can, and whether you do it in small or big chunks is generally a minor consideration. The only time when "effective" damage is important is when you're next to lots of enemies at once, and they're weak enough that they go down in one or two hits. IOW, you're fighting mooks. And when you're fighting mooks, feats like Cleave, Great Cleave and WWA come into play, not to mention six million boom spells. Furthermore, how likely are you to be in range of 5 or more enemies at once at high levels? That's what you need to take advantage of the monk's multiple attacks.

In fact, the mook fight IMC that comes to mind right now is the one where the barb did a x4 crit for 125 points of damage to a hapless 20 hp guy. OVERKILL is what counts for spotlight time, not nickel-and-diming people to death.

Finally, if you want a monk that hits as well as a fighter type, deals damage like a fighter type and generally is a fighter - try a fighter. Perhaps you'd like to go monk 12 / fighter 8 as a 20 level build as a hybrid, only 3 AB behind a pure fighter. Factoring in the flurry of blow bonuses, your effective 20th level attack is BAB +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2. Weapon focuses and specialization will give you the ability to hit and deal damage as you desire - Effectively giving you a +19/+19/+19/+14/+9/+4 attack routine with 9 base damage (plus magical bonuses). Your AC and special abilities will be behind those of other monks, but you don't place a high value on those anyway if you don't consider them to be adequate comensation for lost AB.

The fighter/monk combo would indeed be a pretty good way of doing a combatant monk. In this situation, I'd probably amp Str and pick up a two-handed weapon, rather than relying on the measly unarmed damage. It's just a pity that you should have to multiclass to do something as basic as kick butt, and the monk multiclassing restrictions don't help either....

 

[hong]

"It is left as an exercise for the reader to understand why."

I read a wonderful articule on techniques of teaching, in which a number of similar phrases were translated into lay terms. This one was translated quite simply.

"I dont understand why"

No, Majere, coming up with stupid one-liners is MY schtick. Please not to STEAL MY SCHTICK.

 

[jgsugden]

Hong, believe what you want.

We both agree that a monk has trouble hitting high AC foes. You think this makes him a weak combat character, regardless of his other abilities - incapable of shining in a standard game.

I think this cuts out one area where he doesn't shine as well as other classes, but that his awesome movement abilities (to get to foes faster), his ability to resist magic (to stay in the fight when nobody else can), and his ability to kill foes with a single melee attack (sorcerers, wizards, rogues, mind flayers, etc ...) all help him shine at other times. I've seen the shining. You, apparently, have not.

All we can do is chalk it up to differences in campaign styles and go on.

Good luck.

 

[rich]

hey everyone! I don't know how many people are still following this thread, but I found it very entertaining...
I think of the Monk class like a Ninja -- a very good spy/assassin type, but not somebody I would stack up against a Samurai... As someone else alluded to above, I don't see a bare-footed "peasant" kicking an armored fighter and doing much damage. On the other hand, one good hit by the Samurai and off goes the Ninja's head Obviously, playing a spy or an assassin is more role-playing oriented than "slash and burn" gaming, and that's a choice the players/DM has to make.
IMO, certain classes are more "generally useful" than others -- Rangers, Clerics, Druids, maybe Wizards, whereas other classes are more "niche" classes -- Monks, Barbarians, Rogues, maybe Sorcerors. The niche classes are going to be more difficult to play, which I think is OK. Not everyone is created equally, and not all choices will lead to the same goals... I happen to enjoy the more "useful" classes, but I have a buddy who loves playing a monk. And that's the beauty of the game

on another note, I'm interested in this argument about the Power Attack feat. As a new player, I haven't been as interested in this feat, except that I wanted Cleave (which someone above mentioned and which I use much more than PA). But I'm not much of a numbers cruncher, so I wondered if anyone could explain the pros/cons, or point me in a helpful direction...
TIA!

 

[Plane Sailing]

on another note, I'm interested in this argument about the Power Attack feat. As a new player, I haven't been as interested in this feat, except that I wanted Cleave (which someone above mentioned and which I use much more than PA). But I'm not much of a numbers cruncher, so I wondered if anyone could explain the pros/cons, or point me in a helpful direction...
TIA!

Welcome, Rich!

You might find some of these previous long threads helpful (or at least entertaining)

Is power attack too powerful?

Problems with 3.5 Power Attack?

3.5 power attack: the designers' rationale

Power attack bonus x2 for 2 hand weps

Power Attack!?!?!?!?!?!?

Cheers

 

[smetzger]

As promised here is Bardol the frontline melee guy for my RttToEE campaign. He has a couple of non-standard items. But he is holding up very well in what many consider a deadly campaign.

Bardol Human Mnk 12/Ftr1; CR 13; Spd 70 ft; hp 72; AC 25(21 flat footed, 23 touch); Atk flurry +16/+16/+16/+11 dmg 3d8+1d6+3 or Glaive +13/+8 dmg 1d10+4 Sv Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +13
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +14, Climb +14, Escape Artist +11, Hide +12, Jump +36, Knowledge(religion) +9, Move Silently +12, Spot +19, Tumble +20
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed), Improved Natural Attack

Possessions: Eyes of the Eagle, Cloak of Resistance +2, Amulet of Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +2, Ring of protection +2, Rinfg of Feather fall, Monks Belt, boots of striding and springing, immovable rod, Wand of Enlarge Person[someone else uses the wand on Bardol], Wand of mage Armor[someone else uses the wand on Bardol], + misc potions
Flaming Ki Straps (Turn hands into +1 weapons and add 1d6 fire damage, takes up glove slot)
Hammersphere(functions as spiritual hammer 1/day except that it does 3d6 damage)

Typical Buffs cast on Bardol:
Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Stone Skin, Barkskin, Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Magic Fang, Haste, Protection from Evil, Lion's Charge

Lion's Charge allows you to charge and still make a full attack.

 

[rich]

Welcome, Rich!

You might find some of these previous long threads helpful (or at least entertaining)

Cheers

thanks!

 

[hong]

As promised here is Bardol the frontline melee guy for my RttToEE campaign. He has a couple of non-standard items. But he is holding up very well in what many consider a deadly campaign.

Bardol Human Mnk 12/Ftr1; CR 13; Spd 70 ft; hp 72; AC 25(21 flat footed, 23 touch); Atk flurry +16/+16/+16/+11 dmg 3d8+1d6+3 or Glaive +13/+8 dmg 1d10+4 Sv Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +13
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8

That's... interesting. I think I've only seen one PC with a Con less than 14, and it was messy. How do you keep the character alive with Con that low? I mean, being careful is good, but there's just not much of a safety margin there.