Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[jaults]

I play the cleric in this campaign...

Either my cleric or the druid casts Bear's Endurance on him (26 more HP), he rarely gets hit (his AC is regularly 34 with buffs up and running), and we have a cleric, a druid and the monk himself for healing. Stoneskin also does wonders for soaking damage, and two of our party prepare it regularly. Oh, and for reference, the cleric has a 12 Con boosted to 14 with an item, the druid has a 13 Con, the rogue has a 13 Con boosted to 15 with an item, the archer has a 10 Con boosted to 12 with an item, and the wizard has a 16 Con.

Again, with buffs, Bardol often has in the low-mid 20s to hit, and does a good amount of damage per hit (4d8+1d6+7 when Enlarged), and he does get something like 5 hits when hasted. For the most part, he hits with at least 3 of his 5 attacks, so he dishes out reasonable damage per round. Our other combat character is an archer, who often finishes off the foes that Bardol doesn't kill by round #2.

While Enlarged, Bardol threatens an area out to 20 feet with his glaive, and can also attack foes close in because of his unarmed attacks. He has Combat Reflexes, so he gets a decent amount of AoOs when people engage him.

We also have an Evoker/Elemental Savant(Cold), who does a middling amount of damage to just about everyone on the field, so Bardol and Elfaerin (the archer) don't have as much work to do.

The druid drops Flame Strikes and Dispels with impunity, and when things get bad, summons 2 (or 3, with Spellstaff) freakin' huge (Huge, that is) Earth Elemntals. They have around 150 HP, and do, on average, 40 pts of damage a round.

The cleric uses the vast majority of his slots on buffing the party, so he doesn't have any offensive punch (there are cheers 'round the table when Furio actually drops a foe with his mace). He always has 2 or 3 Dispel Magics ready, Dispel Evil, Greater Command, Wall of Stone and Blade Barrier round out his complement.

Jason (Furio, Cleric 7/Auspician 6)

 

[jaults]

I'd love to hear your thoughts, Hong... (how often do you hear that?!)

Jason

 

[Epametheus]

I had replied to Smetzger's post yesterday, but the board ate it :\

The difference between the unbuffed monk and the buffed monk is rather impressive.. I wouldn't expect a person with only 75 HP to last even a single round on the front line at L13.. But after the buffs are factored in, that monk has effectively 200+ HP and a AC of close to 40. A creature that could overcome adamantine DR would be bad news for him, but otherwise it's like you took a paper bag and somehow got it into the middle of a 20-inch thick titanium block.

Any L13 warrior type would kick ass with that level of buffing, honestly. The results of three spellcasters all backing one guy are pretty damn good, as they should be.

 

[hong]

I'd love to hear your thoughts, Hong... (how often do you hear that?!)

Jason

Heh.

As Epametheus said, the key is in how the party members are working together to buff the monk up. Without that, his stats aren't that impressive; the saves are good as is the unarmed damage, but overall, a well-built fighter or barb could still do better at least offensively. If they also had the same buffs, it would be no contest.

More specific comments:
- The character appears to be built on 28-point buy (assuming you use point buy), which helps get around the monk's dependency on high stats. But the difference between 25 and 28 points is marginal, so this really isn't a factor.

- If you're relying on 3.5 bear's endurance, you're much braver than me! With a duration of 1 min/level, it would seem the monk is taking a big risk of not having it when he needs it; either that or you and the druid have prepped a ton of them and cast it first thing in a fight. Me, I'd just get a +2 item of Con: only 4000 gp, and it's on all day, and can't be dispelled (usually).

- The flaming ki straps are non-core, but they're a good way of dealing with the monk's lack of damage capacity. Ditto for the 1 fighter level and using a glaive.

- Lion's charge is really nice. I have seen it in action.

- Overall though, maybe the biggest point is that you _don't_ have a stereotypical tank in the party, so there's noone to steal the monk's chosen schtick. Life might become interesting if you had a fighter join the party, especially if they had a melee-oriented PrC as well.

 

[smetzger]

Bardol is actually a 32 pt buy.

Ok, last nights fight found the party without many of their buff spells. The party had penetrated fairly far into the bad guy's dungeon and then retreated to the safety of the town. They suspected their might be retaliation and a divination spell confirmed their fears.

So, the party faced an Elder Fire Elemental, 3 Vrocks, a Chaos Beast and a 14th level Wizard. They all teleported into the middle of the PCs. Bardol had stone skin and haste and thats about it. He was full attacked by the fire elemental, fluried the guy (thus taking damage himself from the elemental), Was full attacked again from the fire elemental. At this point he was pretty hurt and Abundent Stepped 120' above the suspected location of the wizard (who was in the dark). While falling (he has ring of feather falling). He touches himself(no not in that way Hong) to heal, and the next round while falling he drinks a cure potion. Upon landing on the ground the Wizard is no-where to be seen. So, he does a 200' charge and attacks one of the Vrocks.

As a side Jason pointed out to me that they do have a frontline fighter. Its the Druids, Riding Dog animal companion. At 12th level I let the Druid Awaken the Dog, take leadership and by divine intervention the Dog ascended to 10th level fighter allowing the animal companion to stack with the leadership. Fifi, has the most hit points in the party.

My point is that it is possible to have a Monk character that 'shines' in the party and is fun to play. Bardol's obvious weaknes is his low HP. But his strength is his mobility. If you think Monk's are too weak, maybe just give them proficiency in all pole arms.

I do, however, think that Druids are a bit too powerful (and not because I allowed Animal Companion to stack with Leadership). Not sure how to fix them, but thats a debate for the House Rules forum.

 

[3.5newbie]

Hmmm . . .

It seems to me that the arguments that the monk is a flawed class are quite weak. It's going to boil down to the kind of campaign you run. Monk, with a mixed package of stealth, anti-spellcaster attack profile, multiple attacks, unarmed attacks, and comparatively weak damage:

* Will tend not to shine in a dungeon-focused campaign. Like rouges, they will come to the fore in biped-centric games; cities, ships, castles, armies. The abilty to attack without a weapon, attack multiple games, and flurry missiles v. spellcasters are all more useful against people. Those comparing a pimped-out barbarian to a naked monk might consider that good DM mix in unexpected encounters not on the player's terms. Who's better in a nightgown?

* Will thrive in low-magic campaigns. Christmas-tree campaigns favor tool users. Magic items and spells are force multiplers. The fewer there are, the better a monk's attack progression and defensive modifers look.

* Are front-loaded; after five or six levels the augementations slow. No big deal, if you have to have the most dangerous character in the room, multiclass out and develop a deadly spellcaster or augment the combat bonuses with a melee class.

 

[Shayuri]

I just want to toss in here, cuz this isn't the first monk player I've seen to make this exact same comparison (monk vs druid).

One of the most effective monk builds I've ever seen was the "thief monk." This monk had Improved Disarm early on...and his mission in life was to steal wands/spell components/divine foci from enemy casters. Once he'd done that, he'd cream mooks, while the druid summons would keep the "big boys" busy.

This combo was -unbelievably- nasty. Enemy casters would find themselves all but helpless...with the GM frantically flipping pages to see what spells they could still cast. Mooks fell like grain to his rapid-fire Flurries...and his relatively low AC and HP were protected by dire wolves and brown bear summons, who were up to the task with Augment Summons.

Note that had he not denied enemy casters their power, the summons would have been FAR less effective. Dispels, protection spells, and simply having to deal with interruptive damage during the turn of summoning makes my druid cry.

The key is for druid and monk to work -together-. Combat isn't a contest (though I totally understand what you were saying about feeling useless). I always take a moment to give my monk buddy a long-lasting Barkskin spell, and a Cat's Grace just before the fun starts too. Those 2nd level buffs aren't too useful for summons, and they make a HEAP of difference to the monk. That translates to more effective spellcaster control, which makes my job of summoning much easier. As for wildshape, sure I can join him in the front ranks if I -have- to. But I find my powers are better used for summoning and healing/support. If someone busts through the front ranks and finds the casters...well, they're in for a nasty surprise when I wildshape...but that's the usual extent of it.

I suggest knocking heads with the party druid, and working out ways that you two can coordinate tactics...find tricks that you can play, little synnergies to take advantage of. It makes a huge difference.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

However, it _is_ a fault of the monk class that it doesn't support the style of play often envisioned by those who play monks.

I will agree with that. Yes, I think the Monk is a viable class. However, it is not exactly uncommon for players to try the class and be disappointed, more so than any other class in 3.5.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you compare that two handed barbarian to the two weapon ranger, you might be surprised by the results.

Yeah, I noticed that "effective damage" thing when playing a 3.0 Ranger. For all that class was indeed underpowered, the TWF was working out surprising well. The other nice thing is the more attacks rolled means that extreme streaks of bad luck where you miss and miss and miss are much rarer -- that is a significant boost to your survivability at lower levels.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

* Will thrive in low-magic campaigns. Christmas-tree campaigns favor tool users. Magic items and spells are force multiplers. The fewer there are, the better a monk's attack progression and defensive modifers look.

It is not quite so simple. The Monk class has severe case of MAD (Multiple Ability Disorder) which has the net effect of making their long list of weird abilities not that stupendous in actual play. But that liability is a potential advantage if stat boosting becomes abundant.

Look for any thread of Vow of Poverty. It is an okay feat for most classes, but quite attractive for Monks (and Paladins).

I have participated in a number of "The Monk is ruining my campaign!" threads. In each case it was a somewhat magic rich campaign and Monk with 3 or 4 very high rolled stats.