D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

Tossed Hot Potato?

No? How about...

Toronto Has Potential?

[Ollivander] Nope, no, definitely not. Alright, let's try...

Tangerine Hotel Platypus.

Doesn't make sense, does it? Right, then...erm...aha! Got it!

Totally Happy Person! :)
My first thought was Tacos Have Panache which while totally true, didn't seem to fit.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Since day 1 of 5e, and probably RPGs in general, someone always seems to bring up a "fix" for their favorite class. The problem i have is that no 5e class really needs it. Is there a disparity between the best and worst? Of course, and that is OK. Its natural. In a list of things there will always be something that is better than something else. Why do we feel the need to put everything on the same level? Now flavor is different. Reskinning something to fit a character concept is both easy and quick (looking at you damage types for themed sorcerors.) I can 100% get behind that, but why not just accept that it is alright for different things to perform differently?
Here here.

At our table a lot of these issues simply do not come up. Every character, and every class, has their strengths and weaknesses. I am not saying people do not encounter shortcomings with their classes who post here...I am sure they are dissatisfied or see a way design elements can improve; but I am saying there has never, ever been an issue that has come up where a player found cause to take issue with his class...and this is over three decades of play. Of course, we have a narrative-based game with a few players who tend to enthusiastically embrace the story and the game and do not tend to be critical of the game. The game exists as a framework for the story.

I think it is a mindset. I love Wizard's commitment to playlets and iterating until they get things right. But a lot of people here post from the perspective of play testing, as if it is a perpetual frame of mind. And that is ok, if one is a budding designer. I am not trying to take that away from anyone. We simply do not play that way. It probably has something to do with how I started playing back in the early 1980s.
 

The thing is, when people don't play a class, it's going to be obvious why you can't see the usefulness immediately. The classes in 5e were not ran through a computer algorithm for the final balance. The final balance was all through playtesting.

Anyone that's played the class, subclass, or race almost always testifies on the forums that the build isn't nearly as bad as everyone says. That's because the design team for the PHB didn't care much about how it looked, moreso how it played.

I'm certain the PHB team is not the same team working through UA. There's probably a bit of overlap but alot of the UA screams fanservice more than balance as well as a lack of consistency. Nobody wants to see a bad feature in their UA and nobody likes seeing less options so every UA has practically given every class/subclass and overload of options.

The real design team then takes a look through their private playtest team that plays campaigns using the UA as the designers expect a game to be played, probably through a handful of modules. They then adjust the balance to reflect what was fun and what was balanced from a gameplay perspective. "The Mystic definitely had too many solutions, it felt like a fullcaster and a full-martial all at once." "The UA Ranger is actually completely trivializing our hexcrawl."

They then take into account the surveys to a lesser degree and put priority on the complaints that are stated in both the official playtest team and survey team. From there, if it's more work than worth, they scrap it like the Mystic class. If it's something that's really been bothering people, they'll keep looking for a good compromise, like the UA ranger being turned into the Variant features. If the complaints are very few, it's ready to be dropped, like the artificer.

And you can tell that the UA is more of a powerfantasy because all of the UA has been either scaled back or kept the same. None have had a significant boost from UA to official book.
 

Anyone that's played the class, subclass, or race almost always testifies on the forums that the build isn't nearly as bad as everyone says. That's because the design team for the PHB didn't care much about how it looked, moreso how it played.
My experience with the Beastmaster class is with actual play. I am watching someone who is a beastmaster and suffering with exactly the issues I have described above. So no, "anyone" who has played that subclass doesn't "always testify on the forums" how it isn't "nearly as bad as everyone says".

I understand that I make theorycraft mistakes. For example, when 5e came out, at a glance the BM fighter looked meh, because I didn't get how those dice could be used in a way that every single one had guaranteed impact on first look. And how the Champion's "always on critical" looked so tasty. And I have since corrected my misunderstanding.
 

My experience with the Beastmaster class is with actual play. I am watching someone who is a beastmaster and suffering with exactly the issues I have described above. So no, "anyone" who has played that subclass doesn't "always testify on the forums" how it isn't "nearly as bad as everyone says".

I understand that I make theorycraft mistakes. For example, when 5e came out, at a glance the BM fighter looked meh, because I didn't get how those dice could be used in a way that every single one had guaranteed impact on first look. And how the Champion's "always on critical" looked so tasty. And I have since corrected my misunderstanding.
Well, your anecdotal experiences seem to be an outlier. Sorry you couldn't enjoy the subclass as much. I've played the BM Ranger and Champion as well, and I've had good experiences playing as them.

It depends on your group but there has clearly been a shift in playstyle since 5e first came out. There's more variety to a table's playstyle from another table's as well.

It's also possible you didn't have quite the correct idea of the subclass before playing it, which isn't unique to Ranger. I've thought a sorcerer was supposed to be the guy who studied magic and was versatile with it. Turned out that's the wizard.

I've thought the cleric was a frail heal-bot that couldn't hold up against an arrow. Turns out that wasn't true.

When I gained a grasp of what the beastmaster was, like I had to do with the other classes, I've done quite good in the game when I played it.

I did play a hexcrawl, and it was one of the most fun I've had as a Ranger, which is why I strongly advocate for at least a point-crawl when running games rather than the episodic episodes where the wilderness is like a lovely stroll through the zoo.
 

Well, your anecdotal experiences seem to be an outlier. Sorry you couldn't enjoy the subclass as much. I've played the BM Ranger and Champion as well, and I've had good experiences playing as them.
[...]
It's also possible you didn't have quite the correct idea of the subclass before playing it, which isn't unique to Ranger. I've thought a sorcerer was supposed to be the guy who studied magic and was versatile with it. Turned out that's the wizard.
Enough of the sly "get gud".

I am watching someone play it and have the exact issues I am describing.

They wanted a pet; the pet is a mixture of precious and not that useful; so they keep the pet safe. Thus they are a subclassless Ranger.

They are a Ranger, so their base kit is thin. Their "favored" abilities require alignment between the character and plot, and the DM doesn't have the bandwidth (or inclination) to do that reliably, so rarely apply. We are T2/3, so travel is usually a mix of teleporting and flight; T1 exploration abilities are nearly obsolete.

Real life experience.

Don't lie and say "always".
 

My sense is much of these sorts of complains come from the char op branch of hobby, which is deeply invested in online theorycrafting and number-crunching rather than play at typical tables.

I dunno about everybody else but, global pendemic aside, I don't get to play DnD often. Theory crafting on these boards is how I interact with the game, and I'm sure many are like me. It's not even a question of having the biggest number like a real char op situation, but rather how to perfect your concept, or to get the feel and fiction to align with game mechanics as best as possible. We're not gonna stop trying to come up with fixes and debate which class is the worse or why just because some people think it's a futile.

It's still fun.
 

Well, I'll say I think ranger is the worst 5e class, in part because it is weak but also because I think it has a lot of poor design choices. The combination of both is what made me want to rebuild it.
Wow i find the ranger to be versatile and powerful with the right spell choices. Definitely more useful than a Barbie and fighter.
 

Enough of the sly "get gud".

I am watching someone play it and have the exact issues I am describing.

They wanted a pet; the pet is a mixture of precious and not that useful; so they keep the pet safe. Thus they are a subclassless Ranger.

They are a Ranger, so their base kit is thin. Their "favored" abilities require alignment between the character and plot, and the DM doesn't have the bandwidth (or inclination) to do that reliably, so rarely apply. We are T2/3, so travel is usually a mix of teleporting and flight; T1 exploration abilities are nearly obsolete.

Real life experience.

Don't lie and say "always".
Not always, I was clearly mistaken. I don't mean to discredit your experiences either.

That said, that doesn't mean it'd a bad class. Every class's effectiveness depends on the DM, setting, campaign, and players. Only one of those are something you can control.

If you find a class unfit for your table's playstyle, that's fine. But I am sick of people putting barriers to playing a class by calling then incompetent or busted or unfun to people that otherwise would've given it a shot.

I've had it happen just this recent campaign I'm DM'ing, someone saying that BM Ranger is useless and nobody should build one. And nothing gets me more upset than someone telling someone else that they can't play what they want to play after I've already given the go-ahead.

It's why, if you've noticed, I work hard finding off-the-cuff scenarios where an unpopular feature can be useful. Because people might get the wrong idea going through these threads with a unanimous "this sucks and needs a homebrew."

So yeah, if it seems like I put alot of effort defending these stuff, I do. I balance encounters like the book says because I want martials to shine with their unlimited stuff. I run hexcrawls because they allow the Ranger to shine where fast travel skips the important parts. I prepare my NPC's so the bard actually reads something useful when they read minds.

As a DM, I feel it's my job to create an impartial playing ground without catering or pandering. You choose a class, you're getting it as written and you're going to run my pre-built adventure as one of the protagonist just like the warlock and bard and druid.

I'm running the game as-written, no adjustments or arrangements, and every subclass, background feature, racial trait, and ability score gets their equal attention through monsters from the MM (possibly re-skinned), Traps (using the DMG process), Dungeons (built with DMG tables), and the planes (from the DMG.) All options from Xanathar's and PHB is allowed. All my magic items are ripped from the DMG. Downtime and lifestyle expenses are used. Carrying capacity is used. Ammunition is used.

And I'm convinced that a game that does the same will find all classes, subclasses, and features well-balanced. It's fun, but it requires preparation and the willingness to understand all of the rules. But I do it because I want my players to have fun regardless of their playstyle.
 

Remove ads

Top