It must be easy, its just a PDF - Forked Thread from What's new with the GSL?

Thanks for the reply Rodney.

Ken, here's what set me off. I admit (after letting my jets cool a bit) that the comment, in it's context, may not have been what was intended.

But the comment was still very minimizing. I don't necessarily agree that Dungeon & Dragon are the easiest products to get right and are the low hanging fruit. It doesn't require the same programming requirements, nor the same processes as a software app, but I wouldn't say it was much "easier". The skill-set is just different.

I am a .NET developer that has done web-based and rich client apps, running over Oracle and SQL Server, built REST and SOAP based web services, and implemented numerous cross-platform SOA applications. For me, the Character Builder would be the low hanging fruit, not the issues of Dungeon or Dragon -- they would be the tough ones. So it's just a matter of perspective.
First off, from one .NET developer to another, I am truly sorry that you have to deal with Oracle. ;) (Although, in all honesty, I haven't had to do that since before .NET was around - and am quite happy about that even if programming for Oracle has improved over the years.) :)

I haven't spent a great deal of time looking through the DDI (am still happy with 3.5 personally, but no grudge against 4e), but from what I've seen, the Dragon and Dungeon PDF posting did look to be easier technically than the Character Builder - although as a programer I'd find the Character Builder much more interesting to code. The complexities of handling the various possible exceptions and potentially cascading bonuses can be mind boggling. 4e looks much more controlled in that regard, so maybe it isn't the nightmare to program character generation as it has been for 3.x. *shrug*

Plus I don't want to call the subscription service and all that jazz easy, of course. I guess it just looked like to me that you and others were arguing against something he wasn't saying is all. I do agree, however, that the "DDI is a failure because it's late" has been beaten so badly, I'm not sure there's even anything left of that poor dead horse.

Personally, if I played 4e, I would be very happy with how DDI is turning out (although I haven't seen if they intend to allow user-generated content into the Character Builder - that'd be a showstopper for me because I love both 3rd party and tinkering on my own). But overall, it's looking nice and I don't want to belittle what they are accomplishing - late or not.

I just have a knee jerk reaction to chime in when it looks like people are getting offended at something a person didn't say. But that's just my degree and a half in philosophy forcing me to meta any debates I read. :)
 

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I got mine off TradeMe (NZ's eBay) for 70NZ incl postage. (50 US?)
More like $35US, with the current exchange rate...
:(

I have to echo that the eDragon has been very good, and very useful, though the quality of the adventures in eDungeon is no where near where it was with Paizo. Although I've noticed that about 4e adventures in general. While there have been a couple of good adventures for 4e, most of them have been average or worse, and I can't think of any yet that I'd call excellent.

Maybe I'll put it down to the lack of 3rd party support. The WotC adventures - with a couple of notable exceptions - were never really that great in 3e either...

Oh, and as a fellow computer geek, I'd echo the sentiments that from the technology, not creative, perspective the PDF magazines and compendium were definitely the low-hanging fruit. I imagine there is a lot of complexity in the character builder, and even more in the virtual tabletop. A web store plus a database and/or document management system of rules/articles which are assembled into HTML and PDF files is pretty trivial stuff.
 

Have you ever put together a monthly periodical? Sorry, I don't intend to sound like I am passing judgment, but if you haven't, then your opinion about its level of difficulty doesn't carry much weight.

Yes I have and they are easy to do. I can still do so with my Apple that only has two programs, the publishing software and Oregon trail, both on 5 1/4" floppy disks.

-Get things ready in advance where it isn't some breaking news required in the publication.
-Use your publication software to design the pages and place all your text onto them for the entire publication.

This is where it diverges, but my program just cannot use the newest software packages and would go straight to a printer, but newer publishing software can use a PDF printer/distiller to "print" the publication to from the publishing software application.

Since DDI already has a final compiled version then having it all done up front and in advance of any release poses no problem. Go into acrobat and extract the pages of each article to their own file from the "compiled" issue, and just name and upload those files to their location right after you have the compiled issue.

The problem may be what is taking time is the improper method used in creating the PDFs in the first place. There is tons of good software out there now that is used for publishing, and even photoshop can do it as well if you are cheap and don't own a decent publishing application.

So it is rather easy to create a publication in PDF if you take the proper steps and get things done in advance like any other real publisher does.

You do things in advance to allow for last minute changes and updates as well to give time for "printing".

If DDI followed the same format that the actual physical books had, then they would be done long in advance save for a few things like the former articles by Randy Buehler which don't even appear in the compiled issues.

So it is very easy to create a PDF by just clicking print and using the PDF printer rather than a physical peripheral device.

There really is little "news" in DDI as everything in it should be known in advance of what is going on because those news bits are not even present in the compiled mags IIRC form the free period of DDI.
 

So what you are telling me is that it's easy to:
  • plan the editorial calendar
  • put together the article outlines that you give the writers
  • round up the artists and arrange meetings
  • view art while it's being developed
  • coordinate and manage the writers and artists
  • meet with the editors
  • edit the articles
  • put the articles together in layout
  • edit again to manage the whitespace
  • deal with the late article that comes in and requires more editing
  • order another piece of art because you need to swap out an image (for whatever reason)
  • get it to final sign-off
  • (Press Print to PDF)
  • pass the new crunch to DDI team
  • roll out articles on Dungeon and Dragon online

And this is an incomplete list.... This is not easy.

Or did you mean that it was easy to:
  • (Press Print to PDF)

Because, yes, this is easy.
 

If Eric Mona is reading, I want to ask if Dungeon or Dragon "weren't particularly difficult to implement"? I would ask him if he had any long days, long nights or stressful deadlines that kept him up at night.

Yes, of course. And I might add I had considerably more sleepless nights after learning that the license would not be renewed. :)

Sleeping pretty soundly now, though, for the most part. Thanks for asking.

All of the guy(s?) working on the online Dragon and Dungeon come from a print background. I replaced Chris Youngs (then Thomasson) on Dungeon, so I know he's seen both sides of it. I'm sure that there are ups and downs related to print and online implementation.

In terms of stress, my _guess_ is that the online implementation is a lot easier, simply because the deadlines are all artificial. If we shipped a magazine late, at minimum it cost us $20,000 and probably a good deal of lost revenue from angry advertisers as well. I haven't been paying enough attention to the e-zines to notice if they're actually on some sort of formal schedule, but I know they went several months with a very loose connection to deadlines. That probably freed them up to "work ahead" on the 4e stuff when they were just treading water at the beginning of the free preview, which is another example of how online media offers more flexibility. That sort of foot-dragging is not a luxury afforded to print publishers.

That said, I'm sure it's not easy, and I suspect Chris has considerably less support in terms of helper-editors, full-time art staff, and management than he did/we do at Paizo, but I don't know this to be the case. It seems like more of a "one-man show" over there these days, which would be utterly impossible for a print publication.

Also, if you mess something up (say by "printing" a picture of a sword that looks like a vagina), you can always just jump into the file and change it to something else once the audience notices. In a print magazine, errors like that will haunt you forever (or at least until the next issue comes out).

I don't necessarily know if one method is easier than the other. I suspect it's easier to do an online or PDF-only product, but I also suspect Chris Youngs might disagree with me. I'd actually love to hear from him about it, as I admit I'm curious.

As an aside, I need to correct something else you mentioned above, when you said that Dragon and Dungeon were Paizo's only responsibility at the time. That has never been true. Depending on when you look at it, the company also published Star Wars Insider, Star Wars Gamer, Undefeated, Amazing Stories, and the beginnings of our GameMastery line at the same time we were working on the D&D magazines. It wasn't often the same individual staffs working on multiple projects at once, but the idea that we were ever "just" the D&D magazine company is simply not true.

--Erik
 

(Although if I recall clearly, Erik Mona has mentioned that some of the 3pps were lax in actually PAYING for those ads....)

Not just third-party publishers. Companies at just about every level of the industry had problems paying for their ads, and tracking down payment was a major part of the ad sales guy's work day.

--Erik
 

So what you are telling me is that it's easy to:
  1. plan the editorial calendar
  2. put together the article outlines that you give the writers
  3. round up the artists and arrange meetings
  4. view art while it's being developed
  5. coordinate and manage the writers and artists
  6. meet with the editors
  7. edit the articles
  8. put the articles together in layout
  9. edit again to manage the whitespace
  10. deal with the late article that comes in and requires more editing
  11. order another piece of art because you need to swap out an image (for whatever reason)
  12. get it to final sign-off
  13. (Press Print to PDF)
  14. pass the new crunch to DDI team
  15. roll out articles on Dungeon and Dragon online

And this is an incomplete list.... This is not easy.

Or did you mean that it was easy to:
  • (Press Print to PDF)

Because, yes, this is easy.

I have altered your post to number your list for ease of expounding on it.

1- Yes planning the editorial calendar should be easy as you are basically taking what is in the magazine and has already been decided what will be in it and breaking it up into which article to release live on what days. Likewise the entire system can be ready in advance to release the articles on time and not have to wait to program the CMS with each new article on the day it is to be released. If the software running the website cannot do date checking then I would suggest getting new software to handle proper dispersal of the material. So if you already know what is going into the magazine in advance, then you can easily create the article calendar.

2- Druid playtest. We want 3 levels for subscribers. That doesn't seem to hard to say, or get someone to just gather the data from the design team and stick it in the magazine. Again the complete magazine should be done before release time of any article on DDI. You should know in advance which playtest or anything else you will need and put them into it and be ready ahead of time.

3- The art must be done well in advance. So again if you know what art you need for an article, then you already know what article you are going to have for the issue. Most of the gaudy banners and borders for the articles already exist and are just plug and play.

4- This goes with #3. The art like the articles needs to be done in advance of the month the articles will be released. Again see the physical book publishing methods.

5- You don't need to coordinate the artist and writers. You need to give the artists a piece and a deadline to create. X number of missed deadlines means the artist is looking for a new job. Same for the writers. This again is why you do these things in advance because you aren't working on a newspaper and an entire publication must be scrapped and changed at the last minute.

6- The editors need the entire issue to work on so they can not only fix the flow of the articles, but the typos and other things that people normally think about. Do you want the RPGA article before or after the playtest this month? Again this is why you do the issues in advance of the month they are being created for to give ample time to be put online and for corrections to be made to the overall PDF, that will be split into individual files for the individual article releases over the course of the calendar.

7- This should be being done as the articles are written. writer gets task to write article, editor edits it and submits it to publishing and they start mocking up the pages for the article since all articles now start on a new page without this whole "(continued on page 80)" bit of the past. Layout is much easier now due to technology.

8- see above.

9- WotC doesn't do this very well, so I don't see why even bother dicussing it. Have you seen the DDI articles and even the printed books at all the wasted real estate space creating that whitespace that could be used to beter reduce the cost of printing and even with PDFs, reduce the filesize to reduce the cost of bandwidth? WotC does not mangage whitespace, they just let it exist without consideration of it. So no lost time on this task.

10- This is why you do the issue a month in advance. It isn't a daily publication that requires the latest world news like the DOW Jones index in an article, so you have time to do it in advance. You know what classes are coming out for playtests, so just take what exists for the book coming out in February and get one of those classes in the February issue of Dragon. Dungeon submissions have even more time they can be done because submissions have to be planned out where they best fit. Scales of War for example needed a firm plan and at least 4 months advance work prior to publishing the first one so that playtesting could be properly done to make sure things worked the way they were supposed to on part A before you printed it so you could make changes to part B and all subsequent parts without causing a delay in the article itself.

11- This is where you order extra art to begin with and have some on hand that has not yet been used for that filler piece, or the piece needs changes for some reason, because painting something isn't an overnight process, and it seems not all the artists work solely in digital media and vector graphics.

12- The editor-in-chief should have been signing off on the pieces as they come in.

13- ....

14- once the PDF is made it takes minutes to split the compiled issue into individual articles. Just name then the way the DDI team needs them named for CMS and send each individual article and the finished issue to them to place on the servers.

15- This is what the server does. Is date >= 12/17/08? Archive shows DDI #18 in the list, DDI #18 now is allowed access to via port 80 requests rather than sending the page output that the article is not ready yet. This should all be done prior to the last day of the previous month, and the DDI team should know what they are getting in advance to set up the content management system with proper dates for things for the database to release the new information on the correct dates. Have you ever sen a webcomic? You can easily place comics well in adavance of the release date and just let the software handle releasing the newer ones on time rather than having to update it with each new comic strip on the day of release. Computers can check a date and run a script that gets the proper information to display new material. Technically you could have a lot of the release dates and information planned into the system in advance, and the DD Insider articles should be since they are a weekly occurrence.

It is easy if done correctly, but many people this day thanks to technology think they can do anything because they have the software to aid them do it, but don't know how to do it and forget a few philosophies. "Keep it simple stupid!" is one of the big ones, and even RTFM is lost on some software and online service providers that fail to even learn the software they are using.

It was poorly planned from the beginning, or planned by someone who had no idea what they were trying to do and padded a resume with things that they didn't understand to begin with making promises of things that could be done with no reasonable understanding of what it takes and timeframes of getting things done and publishing.

Planning is the biggest hurdle DDI has had because that is where it failed and why getting things to the PDF format is so hard because of poor planning and poor organization and optimization of resources human and otherwise.

There is really no excuse about poor planning. Just don't start until you are ready to finish.

So yes clicking print to PDF is easy, but so are the other things when everyone is working together and has a proper plan to get things done in advance, rather than piddle farting around to the last minute to get them done to cause things like Barbarian playtest to be pushed back a month, etc.

Example: Peter Lee should already have 3 articles about the new miniatures ready to go and photography of miniatures form the various new sets ready for preview so that when they are needed the editor and publishing team just grabs them to plug into the articles. If he does then he is one step ahead of the rest of the people, and if he doesn't then he probably wasn't allotted proper time to do so with all his other duties.

Diedre Moinen(WotC_DM, sorry I stink at French spellings) likewise could have articles ready for Visualizer for its potential release as well as the Dungeon Builder, and when they are ready for inclusion as an ad/preview for the Dragon, they can just be plugged in.

There is so much that could be done in advance that seems isn't is where the hold up and problems with DDI and the PDFs for it stem from. So stop waiting to the last minute and procrastinating on stuff you know needs to be done form whoever is deciding on the release schedule for issues/articles.

At this point the June issue of Dragon and Dungeon should already be planned what is going into them for 80% and some article assignments should have already been sent to people, and artwork assignments sent as well so they are not waiting until the last minute to say...did we mention we need that art next week that we never told you about yet?
 


Forked from: What's new with the GSL?

<snipped for brevity>

Have you ever put together a monthly periodical? Sorry, I don't intend to sound like I am passing judgment, but if you haven't, then your opinion about its level of difficulty doesn't carry much weight.

Making a blasé comment and hand-waving it as "not particularly difficult" shows little respect for all the periodical publishers, small press or not that toil each month over this process.

<snip 2>

Getting it to the final product is not trivial.

I didn't see the posts that prompted your question nor have I thrown any stones at WotC. I'm not a subscriber so I don't have a horse in the race.

That said, much of the time when I hear WotC cite something as problematic or when their defenders come to their defense, there's a nagging part of my brain that screams "If the 800lb gorilla of the RPG industry can't get it right, how come <insert name of competitor or 3rd-party publisher> can do it right? Esp. when we're constantly reminded (by others, I'm not laying this at your doorstep) that those competitors/3rd-parties are gnats compared to WotC in terms of market share, resources, and budget.

See, if you're the industry leader then you're expected to be the high bar every one else aspires to. If you're the industry leader and people see "weaker" (for lack of a better term) competitors outperforming you, people wonder why.

To pick on Dungeon or WotC adventures as an example (PDF or print is irrelevant for the example), a lot of fans cite the superiority of Goodman Games, Necromancer, or Paizo to WotC adventures. Now, a company may rightly choose to put less effort into a product that makes them less money. But barring someone from the company saying "we aren't focusing our efforts on this" (as WotC did with 3e adventures), people are always going to wonder why the leader's products aren't best-of-breed. Perhaps the criticism isn't valid, perhaps it is.

There's a lot of advantages to being #1. It does tend to put a very large bullseye on one's back, however.

There are many who feel Dungeon and Dragon hit their high-mark under the Paizo reign during 3e. Taking aside the hard feelings some have/had over WotC taking the mags back in-house, WotC had to know they had a high bar to clear in terms of quality just to reach parity. If you feel they've cleared it, great. Some don't think they have reached that bar yet but they do feel that WotC should have been able to do so. Given their resources, one could argue, "WotC should have done so easily". Perhaps that's an unfair assessment but I can at least understand how someone could arrive at it.
 

Yes, of course. And I might add I had considerably more sleepless nights after learning that the license would not be renewed. :)

Sleeping pretty soundly now, though, for the most part. Thanks for asking.

<snip lots of very interesting insight>

As an aside, I need to correct something else you mentioned above, when you said that Dragon and Dungeon were Paizo's only responsibility at the time. That has never been true. Depending on when you look at it, the company also published Star Wars Insider, Star Wars Gamer, Undefeated, Amazing Stories, and the beginnings of our GameMastery line at the same time we were working on the D&D magazines. It wasn't often the same individual staffs working on multiple projects at once, but the idea that we were ever "just" the D&D magazine company is simply not true.
First, glad you are sleeping better. :)

Second, I want to clarify that I wasn't comparing print vs. PDF, but simply trying to spell out that managing and editing an online publication is not trivial and isn't something that comes easy.

One of the responsibilities of the web dev company I was partnered in was to take a print publication and take it online, back in 1998 when the online magazine and content management systems were still fairly immature. We got bloated Quark files and were asked to (mostly) mirror their "feel" in the web format, utilizing what, these days, are atypical CMS funtions. It wasn't easy, for sure, since we had to launch the online issue the same week that the print issue was sent to the printer. Not trivial either. Especially in 1999. With a shoestring budget.

Also, thanks for clearing up what Paizo's responsibilities were like at the time you were taking on Dungeon and Dragon for the first year. I didn't realize you were that involved in the Star Wars stuff. Very cool. Also the Amazing Stories publication. Did you guys have that first?

Anywhoo.... my rant was more targeted at the "Their just PDF's, they must be easy!" attitude.
 

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