It must be easy, its just a PDF - Forked Thread from What's new with the GSL?

[catsclaw227]

That said, much of the time when I hear WotC cite something as problematic or when their defenders come to their defense, there's a nagging part of my brain that screams "If the 800lb gorilla of the RPG industry can't get it right, how come <insert name of competitor or 3rd-party publisher> can do it right? Esp. when we're constantly reminded (by others, I'm not laying this at your doorstep) that those competitors/3rd-parties are gnats compared to WotC in terms of market share, resources, and budget.

I've always been a big 3PP proponent. You can look at the ridiculous number of d20 and OGL stuff on my shelves, something my wife is more than happy to point out. I have a lot of 3PP PDFs bought legit from RPGNow as well. I loved the 3PP 3.x era. I got some junk, but I got a lot of gold too.

See, if you're the industry leader then you're expected to be the high bar every one else aspires to. If you're the industry leader and people see "weaker" (for lack of a better term) competitors outperforming you, people wonder why.

To pick on Dungeon or WotC adventures as an example (PDF or print is irrelevant for the example), a lot of fans cite the superiority of Goodman Games, Necromancer, or Paizo to WotC adventures. Now, a company may rightly choose to put less effort into a product that makes them less money. But barring someone from the company saying "we aren't focusing our efforts on this" (as WotC did with 3e adventures), people are always going to wonder why the leader's products aren't best-of-breed. Perhaps the criticism isn't valid, perhaps it is.

Again, I am a huge 3PP adventure guy. I did like RHoD from WOTC, but I am now starting to see them get it right with online Dungeon too. I imagine that this has as much to do with experience and process as anything.

I see that justanobody has a spelled out process described above, but getting it right and tight every month takes some getting used to.

Anyways, many of the adventure writers are the same ones that wrote during the Paizo era, as well. I have only run two of the Dungeon adventures since 4e, and I am waiting for more of Scales of War to roll out before I jump on that (and finish Age of Worms 4e as well).

There's a lot of advantages to being #1. It does tend to put a very large bullseye on one's back, however.

'

True, very true.

There are many who feel Dungeon and Dragon hit their high-mark under the Paizo reign during 3e. Taking aside the hard feelings some have/had over WotC taking the mags back in-house, WotC had to know they had a high bar to clear in terms of quality just to reach parity. If you feel they've cleared it, great. Some don't think they have reached that bar yet but they do feel that WotC should have been able to do so. Given their resources, one could argue, "WotC should have done so easily". Perhaps that's an unfair assessment but I can at least understand how someone could arrive at it.

I dig the Paizo Dungeon and Dragon era. I have almost every one, and a lot in PDF as well.

Online Dragon is really awesome, and I think it is as good or better than the Paizo era, given the number of issues that have come out so far. I find that I am actually USING it more often than the 3.x era, which I used a little, but mostly just read a lot. It might have equally to do with the cut-paste ability and the fact that I prep my game with my PC.

 

[catsclaw227]

I have altered your post to number your list for ease of expounding on it.

<snip lots of stuff>

There is so much that could be done in advance that seems isn't is where the hold up and problems with DDI and the PDFs for it stem from. So stop waiting to the last minute and procrastinating on stuff you know needs to be done form whoever is deciding on the release schedule for issues/articles.

At this point the June issue of Dragon and Dungeon should already be planned what is going into them for 80% and some article assignments should have already been sent to people, and artwork assignments sent as well so they are not waiting until the last minute to say...did we mention we need that art next week that we never told you about yet?

So, do you have a lot of experience with all this? From the look of things, you have been in print (or pdf) publishing before, so you have project-managed this process or have been a Managing Editor before.

I know a lot of print publishing people (Execs down to clerical interns), and most in the know say that the process is non-trivial. Each month has it's stresses and Murphy's Lightning sometimes strikes more often that they like.

Our company is entering into an online conversion of a print magazine this year (actually two sister publications) and their experiences as well as the description of their processes tells me that first few months, while we massage our processes, will be filled with long nights.

 

[Monkey Boy]

Looking back at the post in question in the other thread, I took it to mean that on the technical side, Dragon and Dungeon aren't that much. Monkey Boy was talking about all of the problems with the digital side of things, and as far as the technical side of things go, Dragon and Dungeon appear to be the least technically challenging aspects of DDI.

At least that's my reading of the post and granting a bit of the benefit of the doubt - and something I think is pretty obvious. Looking at the technical challenge, Dragon and Dungeon were the low hanging fruit, and most likely the easiest to implement.

Of course on the Design and Development side, they are (or at least should be) as difficult as any print product. But again, that should also be obvious. Thinking that Monkey Boy's post argues against that sure seems like a misreading when you look at the whole post and not just the one sentence.

So, yeah, compared to the rest of the DDI, Dragon and Dungeon are easy... to code.

Maybe I'm missing the posts by others that have set you (catsclaw227) off, but I certainly don't see all that much hand waving of "Dragon and Dungeon should be so EASY" around here - and especially in Monkey Boy's post. But maybe I'm not reading the right threads.

I made the original point in a longer post in the other thread where I talked about DDI's lack of success. I intended to make the point that while Dungeon and Dragon are good this can not be chalked up to the efforts of DDI (coding and such). And no I don't have any experience in the publishing or coding industry. I'm a primary school teacher.

Ken has articulated my point clearer than I did originally. Thanks Ken.

 

[justanobody]

In the past, but as I say technology has greatly sped a good bit of the process, where you don't have to wait for snail mail for things, but it does not mean you shouldn't plan in advance as if you were still using snail mail delivery methods.

To avoid the long nights for a NEW publisher for periodicals, it is best advise to have dedicated staff to certain parts of the project that work directly with their people. Editing team needs to work with the writers ASAP, and set firm deadlines. Also make sure the artist is not a single artist.

You can commission two peices of work, one from different artists if frelance, or inhouse have difference artists work on the same thing, and the unsed can be trashed or saved for later in an archive of unused artwork. This reduces stres for not having anything even when you would have prefer the one that wasn't quite finished, but didn't want to rush and end up with faulty art like Erik described having a fighter wielding a vagina.

The more you can get done yesterday, the less you have to do tomorrow. It isn't that easy a thing to do where you are involved with last minute changes due to real world events if you are reporting on the latest news. But for game mags there should be plenty of stuff, in the case of WotC, where they are the only ones they are using material from and should know what is going on in-house.

If you will have more out-sourced stuff, you have to allow time in advance to make sure things get done and sent in.

Erik is not totally or even mostly wrong, but Paizo has to work with other companies, where most of my examples have been form complete inhouse and you didn't have to wait on other people outside of your own company to get things done. So Erik is right in late nights and waiting for people or even monies from outsides sources to delay things greatly.

So you should probably outline a good few months in advance and get as much started as possible, and get as much returned as possible to handle the edits and rewrites for articles to be sent out and back again in time for the editor to manage the pieces into the compilation issue, and be ready to send out depending on your delivery method.

Just remember if you wait to the last minute to plan for something then Murphy's Law will be much worse than the Law of Gravity.

Get things started ASAP to have the most time on them. I would suggest trying to get an issue ready a month in advance as far as articles are concerned to allow that month prior to release to tweak everything up.

Sadly that doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory because not everyone is working towards the same goal sometimes or even most times it seems, and that is where missed dealines come from.

 

[gribble]

I find that I am actually USING it more often than the 3.x era, which I used a little, but mostly just read a lot. It might have equally to do with the cut-paste ability and the fact that I prep my game with my PC.

I'm noticing this about the online Dragon too. I think it's a combination of factors:

1. I also do a lot of prep online.
2. The material in Dragon is considered "official", so the RPGA and more DMs allow it.
3. The tight integration between the magazines, character builder and compendium. I often find myself searching for something in the compendium and getting hits from Dragon which I wouldn't have otherwise noticed.
4. Higher quality material (or perhaps just less potential for brokenness due to general lack of material this early in the edition). I know some of the stuff published in the 3e was really broken (especially in combination with stuff from splatbooks), presumably because it wasn't being written by the same people as it in in 4e.

 

[catsclaw227]

I made the original point in a longer post in the other thread where I talked about DDI's lack of success. I intended to make the point that while Dungeon and Dragon are good this can not be chalked up to the efforts of DDI (coding and such). And no I don't have any experience in the publishing or coding industry. I'm a primary school teacher.

Ken has articulated my point clearer than I did originally. Thanks Ken.

And since I was the OP, I should note again that it wasn't your comment, per se, but an accumulation of frustration over a certain attitude. Sorry to single you out. Not specifically my intention.

And, yes, Ken did a good job of summarizing the intention of your original post. I've seen him do that before... summarize a discussion in a rational and well-spoken manner, whether I agree or not.

 

[catsclaw227]

3. The tight integration between the magazines, character builder and compendium. I often find myself searching for something in the compendium and getting hits from Dragon which I wouldn't have otherwise noticed.

Interesting.... I also have found that a search for something in the compendium has sparked my interest in an article in Dungeon or Dragon and I have opened up the PDF and started reading away.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Also, if you mess something up (say by "printing" a picture of a sword that looks like a vagina)...

So, of course, this jumped out at me. Is this personal experience speaking or just a rather delightful turn of phrase?

Uh, yeah, Erik, you need to expand on this a bit. If it's true, I need to see if I have that issue.

BD

 

[catsclaw227]

Also, if you mess something up (say by "printing" a picture of a sword that looks like a vagina)...

So, of course, this jumped out at me. Is this personal experience speaking or just a rather delightful turn of phrase?

I recall something about this. Wasn't there an early image posted in online Dungeon or Dragon back before 4e came out that had an image that was weirdly like sword with a "china" (as my wife likes to say) in it.

Here's the original thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/208729-ok-thats-just-vulgar.html

Here's the original image: http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5775/20071003dreo3fulltp3.jpg

Here's what it was changed to: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4e/20071003_dreo_3full.jpg

 

[Fifth Element]

I recall something about this. Wasn't there an early image posted in online Dungeon or Dragon back before 4e came out that had an image that was weirdly like sword with a "china" (as my wife likes to say) in it.

If you tried real hard to see it as that, yes. It was an eye, people, an eye. Like Sauron's eye in the movies.

Edit: Or were people referring to the red energy around the sword? Yeesh. You really need to be looking for that to see it.