Item Creation and the error of loosing Experience

[SkidAce]

I'm fine with it...I look at it from a broad perspective.

The problem comes from the term "spending" exp. By expending exp on creating a magic item you are taking the focus of your character away from advancing in their class. By focusing on creating a magic item...they fall behind the other characters (i.e. less exp total) and the other characters may very well level sooner.

The exp loss is simulating time away from gaining levels (learning stuff). I believe that's why the "can't spend enough to de-level" rule is there...it would strech the simulation too far to lose level abilities you had.

This way you don't "lose" anything....it just slows you down a bit.

 

[MarauderX]

The exp loss is simulating time away from gaining levels (learning stuff). I believe that's why the "can't spend enough to de-level" rule is there...it would strech the simulation too far to lose level abilities you had.

This way you don't "lose" anything....it just slows you down a bit.

Can I get skill points for item creation then? Something? I am losing out on experience points, after all.

And another thing, it's pretty damn lame that you can't spend more XP than that that would make you lose a level. Retarded even. Mostly 'cause I can't get a DM to houserule it the way I would. I'm gonna go pout in a corner now.

 

[FireLance]

Personally, I see the expenditure of XP as an investment of personal power - not specific memories. The creator of the magic item is delaying his acquisition of personal power (gaining a level) to obtain an external source of power (the magic item). This is supposed to be an advantage because you are able to obtain the item for less cost, and you are almost guaranteed to get the item you want. There is thus no need to give any extra advantage such as skill points or XP.

I am particularly against the idea of giving out XP since I play D&D as a game in which the PCs are an ensemble cast of roughly equal power level. The acquisition of a magic item is already a power boost. Giving XP on top of that may cause the item creator to outstrip the rest of the party. Adding a chance of item creation failure simply makes item creation a gamble - win big, or lose big.

Moreover, with the new system of gaining XP in 3.5e, characters that are behind the rest of the party in levels will slowly be able to catch up. The XP cost of item creation has become even less of a cost.

 

[3rdedreichcommander]

Thanks guys for the ideas...

Aliright this is what I think I'll do...When a character chooses an Item creation feat they'll write their XP score like this...(since the first chance they get will be third) 2,000 spendable/3,000 total. Then when they make an Item they feed their spendable points into it and mark the points with the item. I also think I'll adopt the item failure system so that if their item fails or gets lost then they'll loose the experience from their total. And on the unmake remark I think that a creator with half the time he created the item can unmake it while as the person finding another's item would need a brand new meta-item creation feat( Which I just thought up) to unmake it with a similar falure to its decreation and then only gets a percentage of the points needed to create it. Like (caster level)% and think i'll add some other stuff in there so non-magic people don't get unbalaned by this.

 

[Yair]

Aliright this is what I think I'll do...When a character chooses an Item creation feat they'll write their XP score like this...(since the first chance they get will be third) 2,000 spendable/3,000 total. Then when they make an Item they feed their spendable points into it and mark the points with the item. I also think I'll adopt the item failure system so that if their item fails or gets lost then they'll loose the experience from their total. And on the unmake remark I think that a creator with half the time he created the item can unmake it while as the person finding another's item would need a brand new meta-item creation feat( Which I just thought up) to unmake it with a similar falure to its decreation and then only gets a percentage of the points needed to create it. Like (caster level)% and think i'll add some other stuff in there so non-magic people don't get unbalaned by this.

Well, that's a MAJOR overhaul of the sysem... good luck with that!
If I may suggest, if you are going that way - base the "expendable gp" on the "Starting PCS Treasure by Level" chart (name?) in the DMG; that way the character can roughly have twice the worth of magic items (once per normal treasure division, and once per spending XP) at each level - which makes it just about equal to creating the character as a new character.
Just adds a nice touch, I think.
I won't go to the trouble of thinking about how to do this best, though Maybe after work...

 

[Golem2176]

Item Creation and the error of loosing Experience

I didn't know that experience was loose! JK

 

[Frostmarrow]

How about taking the redundant entry in DMG "Caster Level" and have that correspond to Trap CR? That is in order to make an item with Caster Level 3 you need to overcome a Trap with CR 3 with your spellcraft skill or face the consequences of setting off a CR 3 Trap (which one decided before hand) as a magical research failure. Award XP if the research is successful.

I would love to hand you an example but sadly I don't have the books around and I don't think either Caster Level or Trap CR are in the SRD. Anyhow, I'll make a try with made up trappings:

Say a wizard wants to make a Wand of Fireball. The wand has a caster level of 5. There is a trap of CR 5 in the DMG (DM's choice really- it just so happens that a fireball trap i suitable here. Could've just as well been a pit trap):

Fireball Trap: CR 5; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (fireball, 8th-level wizard, 8d6 fire, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28. Cost: 12,000 gp, 960 XP.

From this we learn that in order to make a Wand of Fireball the wizard need to make a spellcraft check versus DC 28 or face the fireball-misfire (8d6 Reflex save 14 save for half). If succesful the wizard gains XP for overcoming a CR 5 trap. If not the wizard must start over again (if still alive). The failure consumes half of the ingredients (or whatever is the usual amount).

This failure effect could be pretty cool too:

Moving Executioner Statue: CR 5; mechanical; location trigger; automatic reset; hidden switch bypass (Search DC 25); Atk +16 melee (1d12+8/x3, greataxe); multiple targets (both arms attack); Search DC 25; Disable Device DC 18. Market Price: 22,500 gp.

Perhaps you get to use Knowledge Arcane first (in lieu of Search) to identify the danger with the procedure?

 

[Yair]

How about taking the redundant entry in DMG "Caster Level" and have that correspond to Trap CR? That is in order to make an item with Caster Level 3 you need to overcome a Trap with CR 3 with your spellcraft skill or face the consequences of setting off a CR 3 Trap (which one decided before hand) as a magical research failure. Award XP if the research is successful.

Interesting. Sounds like a very good basis for such a system.

I'm not going to use it, as it doesn't fit my current campaign, but will definitely keep it in mind. Thanks.

 

[Hecateus]

"From this we learn that in order to make a Wand of Fireball the wizard need to make a spellcraft check versus DC 28 or face the fireball-misfire (8d6 Reflex save 14 save for half). If succesful the wizard gains 960 XP. If not the wizard must start over again (if still alive). The failure consumes half of the ingredients (or whatever is the usual amount)."


DC 28!? Sounds rough to just make your first wand at fifth level. Even with a 20 INT, a wiz would need a roll of 15 to succeed. One should allow partial failures like they have for climbing...ie at a roll of 14, that wand won't blow up in your face, but the days work is lost, that is all. at a roll of 9(failure greater than 5), there is a minor explosion, and half the wand's value is lost in it's creation, start over...after healing from the one charge that got loose! On a roll of 4 (failure greater than 10) the wand detonates at full explosive value (roll to see how many charges were inputed at the failure point), item totally destoyed.

since the caster has a bonus of 8, it is impossible to fail that badly on the basis of a simple roll for a simple wand. But more comlicated items can carry serious creation risks now. Risks which grant XP!

This would still heavily encourage spellcasters to take a few levels of rogue, but not be lethal to those just trying out new item creation feats.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I see xp loss for magic items as skill degradation. You are spending so much time creating a magic item that your other skills degrade making it so that you have to spend more time rebuilding your skills by adventuring.

The generic gold cost bothers me far more than the xp cost of creating a magic item.