Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[Iku Rex]

Those two comments seem to contradict each other in terms of game-play. If the shop has the items the players want, they may as well have every item available; as the players will only buy the ones they want anyhow....

I'm not sure, but I think Foxworthy is saying the same thing I tried to say in my last post.

The player can have any item he wants. The character can't. In order to understand this you have to understand the difference between the character and the player.

Do you apply some dice-rolling method when players want to "spend" their XP?

" 'Another level of wizard' you say? <rolls> Sorry - no wizard training available. You have to settle for a level of commoner. Good thing I rolled the dice eh - otherwise there'd be no challenge."

Again, just because a DM allows players to choose any class or PrC* (as long as it's possible/reasonable in the campaign world) doesn't mean every little town has hundreds of schools dedicated to training adventurers in every possible skill or ability. The player can choose to do almost anything, the character can't.

Getting the best items should be a challenge.

It is a challenge. You need enough gp to buy what you want.

 

[aboyd]

Weird. I don't let players get whatever they want, and yet my campaigns run just fine.

I'm not sure that D&D is as fragile as is being suggested here by some. It doesn't break if the DM limits options.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Truth be told.. I allow my players the option to have the base classes as per the players hand book; it is their handbook so to speak.

Regarding magic items and monsters, I ask that the players not look at the books. This will likely be a contested concept within the boards for several reasons.. but for the moment it works well; the characters cannot be expected to know about every creature/magic item in the world. It also helps to avoid issues about price and monster difficulty.

Regarding prestige classes.. I've only recently decided to implement them into my current game. But I'll be incorporating them into the story itself. So, an an example, at some point the Rogue in the group will meet people in the game of certain prestige classes; and can request training. Once that requirement has been met, then I wont enforce any rolls in the future to determine whether anyone is 'in the area' to teach them. I see this requirement as being met in the same way that wizards gain their 2 additional spells at each level; as research happening 'behind the scenes'.

If the players want to know something about a monster they're facing, I roll a knowledge check and give them the relevant details.

Their knowledge of magic items is limited to what they find, what they see in the magic item shops, and to some extent, what they are able to create from their feats. For creating items, I get an idea from them of what they want, and I'll provide them with a list of items that match or nearly meet their needs.

But saying all that.. I can see your point relating to the 'players having' and 'characters having'. But I'm now confused as to how that distinction makes any difference to letting the characters buy any item they want/can afford.

So; I guess my comment should have been "If the shop has the items the characters want, they may as well have every item available; as the characters will only buy the ones they want anyhow..."

Let me know if I've still got the wrong idea...

 

[Noumenon]

I am glad Iku came back to repeat his idea because it is one I have never seen before in all the "magic Wal-Mart" discussions on EnWorld. The "GP as XP" idea is an interesting comparison: why do people make it harder to level up your equipment than your character? You level up a cleric and 50 new spells automatically pop into your repertoire. You earn 10,000 gp and where that new flaming guisarme comes from is a major difficulty?

I feel the players are penalized enough by selling magic items for half their value to turn around and tell them that the item they need isn't available feels like being a bit too hard.

I made this even worse -- I made it one-quarter to sell back, so that there is an incentive to keep the offbeat items the DM gives in treasure instead of trading in for +1 swords. But looking at it from Iku's perspective, that would be like picking what new spells a wizard can take this level because the DM wants to see more variety. I think I might waive this house rule and trust the PCs to buy interesting magic items themselves.

 

[Jhaelen]

Okay.

Now, the shop won't have everything in stock, but if you're willing to wait a couple of days, they'll get it for you.

Why does anyone feel that this is unrealistic?

Is there sufficient demand for magic items that creating them (to order) and selling them is profitable?

If so, there will be magic item shops.

Now will these magic item shops actually have magic items in stock?

I actually don't think so, except maybe stuff like potions of healing. There's simply too many of them, they're very expensive and you'd have to protect against potential thieves.

This is actually part of the reason I have trouble seeing anyone buy magic items from pcs even at half price, unless they're commonly requested.

Now, magic items are created by pcs that have the required item creation feats. A shop owner will either craft them himself or hire crafters to create them (on order). In the former case it's possible that you will only be able to order a subset of magic items because the owner is either lacking the required feat or access to the required spells. In the latter case it may require some negotiation but in principle everything can be crafted by contacting the right pc(s).

You'll probably have to pay at least half the item's price in advance.

Then you wait for the item to be created (and maybe shipped to the shop).

Now, why does anyone feel this isn't a reasonable scenario in a world where it is possible to create magic items without any risk or chance of failure?

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

How about you turn it about and suggest that your players should take feats in magic item creation to create items (and spend XP) for everyone else in the game... if they get upset about the suggestion, then maybe you'll have taken one step in understanding why it's unreasonable to expect that the PCs be able to have any item they want created by the next available shop merchant; it requires adventurers to make them - adventurers that have taken item creation feats over more beneficial ones.

You're question then comes down to the sort of world you're working in. Is there a vast number of ex-adventurers who have the ability to craft magic items? If 'yes', then it may be realistic to ask that PCs have any item available.. but keep in mind that these retirees are expending XP to continually make items, and they themselves should be limited in the number of magic items they know about.

Oddly, I get a mental image of a hive workshop where all ex-adventurers go; their life after adventuring is making magic items for the new round of adventurers

But back to our example; you're in a world that has say 5 nearby cities. Two of these are quite large. Your PCs are after a specific and powerful sword. Out of these cities, only four have information on the swords, two have a series of people that could create them. But only one is not too busy with other things; and then he charges so much (for a good job) that it may be better waiting. So your PCs have to firstly be in a city with details of the sword, find these details, find a name, hope it's the right one, and then find the person (maybe in a different city; who's circumstances might have changed by the time the PCs got there).

Is this the sort of system you're implementing with letting PCs have any item?

Maybe you're starting to see why it's unrealistic to suggest that the PCs have access to every magic item in the books. You may be ready to accept that the PCs don't know of every item available, but you've not made the next step in assuming that the rest of the town/realm/world doesn't know either.

I think this really comes down to the system. I see little difference between having a shop that sells everything and a shop that makes items on order. If you allow one, then you're just that bare step away from offering the other. Both seem unrealistic for different reasons.

But as always... that's just me

 

[OmniChaos]

I do have alchemists in cities & towns that will make them potions. Churches will make divine scrolls & wizards will make arcane scrolls. If a player wants a specific item, they have to have a good reason for why their PC would even know that item exists (reading about it in the DMG does not mean the PC would know about it or even think about it's possible existence). If they have a good reason, they can ask around and try to locate one for sale or pay someone to make it.

I kinda like that idea. I mean how does you PC even know about it. The only kind of PCs that should know alot about magic are those that use it. I dont expect the barbarian to know about magic weapons much less where to find them. I do like the idea of having to make skill checks to find out about them and stuff. Make use of all that int that wizards have for more then powering their spells. lol Even a smooth talking rogue or sorcerer could get information for the party about magic items. Then after the PCs know about it the players can go thru the motions of finding their items or having them made for them.

Seems like a balanced way to get what you want but not have it given to you.

 

[Foxworthy]

Those two comments seem to contradict each other in terms of game-play. If the shop has the items the players want, they may as well have every item available; as the players will only buy the ones they want anyhow...

Exactly the players get what they want for their characters but the illusion of the shop being filled to the brim with magic items isn't there. It's a way to give players what they want without having to sacrifice the realism of magic item shops.

Getting the best items should be a challenge. Saying 'you can have what you want' is similar (in a loose way) to letting the players not die when they reach -10 hipoints (even if you invent a fancy excuse). You're catering to the desires of the players in bending the rules/realism of the game.

Getting items is still a challenge. The players need to face challenges to get the loot they end up selling for half in order to get the gear they want. And comparing my idea to a house rule about PC's not dieing is a bit off. Especially since I'm mentioned using the DM Guide rules on GP Limits in Community Wealth.

If the players find a sparce village next to a well that can support only 30 people; the village has no weaponsmith or magic user. They should not be able to buy any potion or magical weapon from the local shop. There might be some, due to trade, but overall, they're just not going to have certain types of items.

Of course not, the community has a 40gp limit and a max amount of cash on hand of 300 gold.

But the players should be able to find anything they want that cost less than 40gp.

The more I think about it, creating a system whereby players can choose the items they buy from a list of all items, feels like a digression back to the 'cowboys and indians' school-yard game. It's all in the effort of keeping players happy and the workload of DMs light.

But after my half-rant.. it does come down to the DM I've got no problem with others playing the game the way they want. I'll put forward my views on what's appropriate, but at the end of the day, each person will decide for themselves.

Well sure it's a game so keeping the players [including the DM] happy should be the primary goal.

Telling the players that the DM is going to limit the magic item options inorder to prevent the players from getting the good items, despite the fact that by the DM Guide and MIC they should be able to buy them seems more like punishment to the players.

If your players like that, more power to you becaus elike you said it comes out to what works for each DM and group. Which is one of the good things about DnD, you can always find a group catering to the game style you prefere.

 

[Jhaelen]

How about you turn it about and suggest that your players should take feats in magic item creation to create items (and spend XP) for everyone else in the game... if they get upset about the suggestion, then maybe you'll have taken one step in understanding why it's unreasonable to expect that the PCs be able to have any item they want created by the next available shop merchant; it requires adventurers to make them - adventurers that have taken item creation feats over more beneficial ones.

I guess it will surprise you then that magic item creation feats are quite popular in my game. There's always at least one pc that can create magic items. If they'd be able to make money by creating items (which npcs can), I'm absolutely sure they'd create items for everyone else.

Regarding the xp cost: Maybe this is news to you but spending xp is actually a good thing!
Once you lag behind a level you get more xp out of every encounter. This more than makes up for the loss of xp spent to create items.

Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise and you're free to play the game any way you like if you don't mind the extra work of changing stuff and your players are fine with it, too. So: happy gaming!

 

[Amazing Mumford]

I am glad Iku came back to repeat his idea because it is one I have never seen before in all the "magic Wal-Mart" discussions on EnWorld. The "GP as XP" idea is an interesting comparison: why do people make it harder to level up your equipment than your character? You level up a cleric and 50 new spells automatically pop into your repertoire. You earn 10,000 gp and where that new flaming guisarme comes from is a major difficulty?

I think comparing "gp" to "xp" is really apples and oranges. First of all, I DO NOT want to get into the whole "leveling" discussion-- some groups have mandatory training, some groups do it automatically, etc. etc.-- NOT the point on this thread. Having said that, "leveling" and "getting treasure" are totally different. When a PC has enough xp to gain a level, that PC automatically gets a bunch of stuff he/she is entitled to. The PC picks skills, feats, ability point allocation, etc. Some gaming groups have restrictions on spells, I can kinda see this-- maybe your wizard that just reached 9th lvl can't choose to get halaster's fetch II because that's a very rare spell-- wizards make their own spells after all, and they aren't always "publicly" available. Also, maybe if you're a cleric "50 spells" don't automatically pop into your head-- it makes sense to me that divine spells would be "filtered" by the dieties portfolio's. If you worship Auril maybe flame strike, earth reaver, lava splash, meteoric strike, parboil, and stonefire won't be available to your cleric that just turned 9th-lvl.

But other than that, leveling up gives the PC's things they are entitled to per the PH. Magic items, on the other hand, is a totally different thing altogether. It doesn't say anywhere in the PH that PC's are entitled to "go shopping" with whatever magic item list they find. Yes, the game assumes the PC's have gear, but if a PC group has all-tailored and customed gear than balance is thrown out of whack. Also, there is the issue that PC's DO NOT have a DMG or MIC to browse through, the PC's have no knowledge of all the magic items out there. Yes, certain things are definitely more common knowledge, but maybe that's what Knowledge: Arcana is for, or Gather Information. Plus, having unlimited access to whatever magic is out there ruins finding "cool" magic items in the adventure. PC's could care less if they find a ioun stone or figurine of wonderous power if those are available at any town that has a listed price range (or as I like to call it MSRP!) I think the game assumes a certain randomness of gear, it also makes the PC's better PC's for having to think "outside the box" sometimes. Your PC shouldn't be defined by his/her gear. Otherwise you're just playing a paper doll with equipment, and if the equipment gets lost/stolen/disjoined/broken than your character is "useless"? Definitely not so! Raistlin is still Raistlin with or without the Staff of the Magius. Drizzt is still Drizzt no matter what scimitars he has, and if I recall he did fine for awhile even without his panther figurine.

All that being said, as I have said before, I don't think the idea is to make it impossible for PC's to buy certain items, just don't hand them everything on a silver platter. If you have a dwarven Paladin of Moradin, make the "magic sword" at the end of the adventure a warhammer instead! Or if the Arcane Archer wants a new bow, it's fine to pick up a +1 or +2 bow in say Waterdeep or Calimport but throw a hint or rumor that a green dragon or evil druid might have a (insert special power here) bow as loot after destroying a powerful ranger's hunting lodge in the woods or something. That way they go on the adventure and they don't end up with useless gear! And it has always been my view that PC's can actually "use" a lot of the treasure they come across, they just get whiny because it doesn't happen to be the most beneficial or most highly optimized weapon/staff/spell. If you're a fighter and choose to specialize in a very exotic item, then you should not expect to find this item everywhere you go in the world! That's the drawback of picking the super-cool weapon with it's advantages over a more common weapon. God forbid the fighter PC with Weapon Focus: Mercurial Longsword might have to settle for a regular longsword for a little while because that's what treasure the monster had! I'm not saying make it impossible for that PC to eventually find a cool mercurial longsword, I'm just saying that not every blacksmith/weaponsmith will have one. And just where did the fighter get the idea anyway to ask for a +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness?? The fighter didn't, the PC did after he looked at all the options available in various books. That's meta-gaming! Hey, if it works for your group, then go for it.....