It's Dark Sun

[aurance]

It's not an option you turn on or off. It's not something you can do for more power. It's intrinsic to the nature of the world. Arcane magic is life-force. If you want to cast a fireball, you will kill things around you, or gradually kill yourself.

What? This is incorrect.

There was no "kill yourself." There was a "draw magic from things around you slowly and carefully so as not to harm them," which was what Preserver was, which was exactly equal to a standard wizard in D&D.

 

[the8bitdeity]

It makes me sad that these horrible things are attractions for some fans. Features like those in a setting will drive me away. I could never enjoy a setting in which I can't play my beloved heavily-armoured knight characters. The setting's appeal seems to revolve around "Whee! It's not Tolkien! It's Different!" Too different for me, I'm afraid...

I do not like Dark Sun, and for me, this is unwelcome news. I hate to see WotC devoting resources to something like this when they ought to be cranking out more heavily-armoured awesomeness. I still feel cheated that they have so far released very little in the way of new classes/features/feats/options in 4E for those of us who like the knight in shining armour character archetype. I hold out some feeble hope that Martial Power II will finally bring the awesome that I crave for my heavy armour PCs, but if not, then I will abandon the D&D brand; WotC will have at last demonstrated to me that they want to leave my playing style behind.

I'm not trying to start a ruckous, but I've seen your posts on both here and the WotC boards. I respect that you greatly enjoy heavy armor but I'd ask that you perhaps watch some of your wording.

For example:

It makes me sad that these horrible things are attractions for some fans.

The emphasis and the use of the word "some" makes the statement feel like an attack. It raises my neck hairs if you will. It makes me think you're marginalizing me as a freak because I like post apocalyptic settings (including fantasy).

Again, I appreciate you like the big heavy armor stuff, I'm sorry the setting doesn't do anything for you, but please respect that I am extremely happy that it's Dark Sun, and don't want to feel like a freak for doing so.

 

[outsider]

The city states in the original box were a little too much of draconian police states with absolute and total control over all life within their borders, right down to the water people drank. Players like to rock the boat, they don't take well to backing down from *anything*. A typical group of typical player characters in the setting wasn't believeable at all. They would act like they act, and the crackdown that the setting would suggest should be forthcoming should be by all rights swift, brutal, and overwhelming.

I don't really agree with this. Succeeding at standing up to the sorceror kings/changing the world/whatever was set up to be hard, but not impossible. Which makes it more satisfying and impressive when you eventually accomplish it.

It's not like a sorceror king would go out of his way to chase down a group of level 5 characters or something. He probably wouldn't even waste magic on it. That kind of thing was the job for Templars, and player characters were perfectly capable of taking on Templars. There were plenty of people working against the sorceror kings(eg the veiled alliance, other sorceror kings), and plenty of area beyond the reach of the sorceror kings. Once you were outside of their cities, you were pretty safe from them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

(doublepost)

 

[I'm A Banana]

What? This is incorrect.

There was no "kill yourself." There was a "draw magic from things around you slowly and carefully so as not to harm them," which was what Preserver was, which was exactly equal to a standard wizard in D&D.

You're right. In my bloodlust, I was imagining more the descriptions from the novels than the actual game. My bad.

OK, revised stance. Defiling as an option you can turn on or off makes sense to me now.

The addition of the feywild (and the shadowfell) to darksun won't be a problem for me, as long as it's nicely done. Kamikaze Midget says "no escapes" : those are not escape, those are dangers and traps, and you can't decide do go (or interact) there, the DM do.

This I'm a little less flexible on. The alienation of the entire world was important, in my mind; the links to the elemental planes (and the deadliness of those planes in 2e) meant that, basically, Athas was the only place that you could exist in. That isolation helped my DM's mind focus on the world itself instead of where else these characters could go.

I'm okay with tricksy mirage desert fey in principle, but I don't see any need for there to be an entire plane of the stuff. Why can't creatures like that be a part of the world itself? Why do we need to kick them over to a whole parallel universe? Why can't those wandering in the desert actually go mad and die fooling themselves?

 

[ppaladin123]

It makes me sad that these horrible things are attractions for some fans. Features like those in a setting will drive me away. I could never enjoy a setting in which I can't play my beloved heavily-armoured knight characters. The setting's appeal seems to revolve around "Whee! It's not Tolkien! It's Different!" Too different for me, I'm afraid...

I do not like Dark Sun, and for me, this is unwelcome news. I hate to see WotC devoting resources to something like this when they ought to be cranking out more heavily-armoured awesomeness. I still feel cheated that they have so far released very little in the way of new classes/features/feats/options in 4E for those of us who like the knight in shining armour character archetype. I hold out some feeble hope that Martial Power II will finally bring the awesome that I crave for my heavy armour PCs, but if not, then I will abandon the D&D brand; WotC will have at last demonstrated to me that they want to leave my playing style behind.

But the default setting ("points of light") is exactly what you like: heavily-armored knights questing to rid evil from the world. Also PHBI, martial power, and divine power are chock full of mechanical options for heavily armored warriors. You also have a bunch of articles in Dragon on gladiators and fighting styles and you just got, "fighter essentials."

Mechanically 4e already handles heavily-armored high fantasy very well. In terms of setting and fluff you have plenty of support too.

But what about Dark Sun? 4e doesn't have rules for defiling or dealing with a world in which all the gods are dead. We don't have Thri-keen or Mul stats. We don't have balanced mechanics for characters forced to wear light or no armor and fight with glass/stone weaponry.

What is the harm in expanding the options? You have your mechanics....why not be happy that the system will soon have mechanics for an additional play-style?

 

[the8bitdeity]

I think it's also going to be VERY important to reaffirm the 4E philosophy that Player Characters are a major cut above the rest of the populace. A lot of the magic and resources that are in discussion for being "Dark Sun-esque" or not might very well ONLY lie in the hands of PCs. Perhaps the planes ARE there, but only a handful of people can open a portal to them. Ultimately I suspect we won't see wholesale NEGATION of D&D Core concepts (cosmology, magic, etc..) just the flavor and intention will reinforce that certain things in the PCs hands are a once in a generation / millennia resource.

 

[Dausuul]

I think the Feywild ought to look much like the standard Feywild, but existing only in small, isolated pockets - verdant oases, disconnected from one another, that can be reached only from certain places and at certain times, and only if you know how to look.

These pockets are rare, and becoming rarer, because high-level defilers are constantly searching for them; the amount of power a defiler can suck out of one boggles the imagination. Of course, the pocket is destroyed in the process.

And, naturally, no Feywild pocket is a safe place. Some are guarded by powerful druids, shamans, or wardens, who do not tolerate intruders lest those intruders turn out to be spies for the sorceror-kings. Others are inhabited by ancient primal creatures, denizens of a bygone world. Most of the rest are home to horrific monsters that wandered in out of the wastes a long time ago and never left.

 

[aurance]

It makes me sad that these horrible things are attractions for some fans. Features like those in a setting will drive me away. I could never enjoy a setting in which I can't play my beloved heavily-armoured knight characters. The setting's appeal seems to revolve around "Whee! It's not Tolkien! It's Different!" Too different for me, I'm afraid...

I do not like Dark Sun, and for me, this is unwelcome news. I hate to see WotC devoting resources to something like this when they ought to be cranking out more heavily-armoured awesomeness. I still feel cheated that they have so far released very little in the way of new classes/features/feats/options in 4E for those of us who like the knight in shining armour character archetype. I hold out some feeble hope that Martial Power II will finally bring the awesome that I crave for my heavy armour PCs, but if not, then I will abandon the D&D brand; WotC will have at last demonstrated to me that they want to leave my playing style behind.

It makes you sad that people like themes in a D&D campaign other than the ones you do?

 

[Aloïsius]

Hmm, if there was some manner of Feywild type plane, or any kind of plane beside Athas. I would love to have mirages be the entrances and exits to it. Just imagine blindly following a mirage thinking it leads you to shelter, and you end up in a entirely different world. Perhaps a even harsher one (Feywild is nature extreme, so that would mean really harsh in Dark Sun).

Note that mirage as portal would give it some twisted Al-Quadim feel.... Oh, and it should not be "perhaps" but "of course an even harsher one".

I think the Feywild ought to look much like the standard Feywild, but existing only in small, isolated pockets - verdant oases, disconnected from one another, that can be reached only from certain places and only if you know how to look. All are hidden and most are guarded by powerful druids, shamans, or wardens.

These pockets are rare, and becoming rarer, because high-level defilers are constantly searching for them; the amount of power a defiler can suck out of one boggles the imagination. Of course, the pocket is destroyed in the process.

That's another possibility, somewhat akin to what Kamikaze midget described. The reason why I don't have much problem with the Feywild and the Shadowfell is because I don't see them as "another plane" or "parallel universes", but rather as a distorted version/perception of the prime reality. It's not parallel because it's "there" and you can more or less feel it in some places. It would remain Athas. So no verdant glades and frolicking nymphs in Dark Sun, of course. Hum, I wonder how the Dark Sun looks in the shadowfel. For a twist, maybe it radiates some necrotic cold and shadows extends toward the greyish sphere... And the soul of dead peoples are collected/enrolled by the undead masters of the necropolis, always eager for new slaves or new food...Well, it's more probable that WotC does not say anything about the Shadowfell in Dark Sun...