It's Dark Sun

[andarilhor]

My thoughts about dark sun 4e:

Let me say I am very happy for the choice! I always loved athas and will be a real test to 4e.

First: I agree there will need to be class features/ feats/ backgrounds/ paragon paths which refer to characteristics typical of Athas.

Martial: I hope to see rules of different materials for armor and weapons as the old rules of using pieces of armor.
Beside that, the martial classes will need new features to focused in light or no armor.

Arcane: Defiling magic should be default to all arcane classes, am give no just benefits, but some kind of penalty (affecting all creatures, allies and enemies, in a burst) so preserver magic should be acquired by feat or paragon paths.

Divine: To me, divine classes may exist in Athas, but will need one of following options:

1 - Use the reminescent power of the absent or dead gods
2 - Follow powerful creatures of individuals (the sorcerer-kings, elementals, immortals, etc) That option is the most likely to templars.
3 - Adhere to a phylosophy instead of a deity
4 - Any combination of the above options.

Primal: Back in 2E, druids was bonded to certain regions. Now, I hope that will not be the case, instead each primal will be bond to certain spirits like the sand, wind, rain, etc.

Psionic: A way to take the wild talent concept is to give all characters receive a power point which refresh daily (instead of encounterly like standard PsPs) and have some psionic feats which do not require psionic class, just power points.

Elemental: I remember someone in WoTC saying sometime ago than the elemental classes will be related to primordials like divine classes are related to deities, so the original athas cleric devoted to elements may be a new class of this power source.

4e material in athas: Just as some guys already said, would be good to see athas versions of some races, and I think in some cases we just don´t will have any references if somethings exist or not in athas (letting each DM decide). There is any reference to swordmages in Eberron or Artificers in Toril? Also there is not any reference they don't exist in there, right? (seriously, i am right? I don' know for sure. hehe) Same thing may happen to certain elements of 4e in DS4e.

Cosmology: Athas can be at the botton of the material plane. Closest to the Elemental Chaos than to any other plane.

Last Thing: It´s just me, or one prescience bard with multiclass to poisoner justs screams DARK SUN!?

 

[Shroomy]

Does it have to be possible at all in anything more than a theoretical way? Like an out-of-race dragonmark, there doesn't have to be any rules prohibiting it, but the campaign doesn't need to assume that PC's are going to go on planar adventures, either.

I'm not sure, Athas was extremely isolated, but not cut-off completely. I mean, there are examples like the ancient githyanki invasion, and weren't there Athasian characters in Ravenloft and Planescape? I don't think I would make planehopping a major focus of DS (and I doubt that planar material will get more than a few pages in the CS), but I don't think I would make it completely impossible to do so.

 

[Spatula]

I agree on the disconnect and its importance. However, there were gods at one time, presumably good and evil ones.

I don't think this was the case in 2e. The original box set left it (and other questions) unanswered. And IIRC the Prism Pentad stated that there were never any gods at all on Athas.

The thing is, the disconnect from the planes is pretty important to me for the feel of the game. There can be no "fiendish blood," and any "outsider pacts" (even with elemental princes)

Pacts with elementals are pretty much exactly how elemental clerics came to be in 2e...

I don't see any issue with teleportation and planes. It "just works" in 4e - the definition of teleportation doesn't involve anything about stepping through other planes.

 

[andarilhor]

That said, I was never on board with the idea Paladin's couldn't exist ever no way no how on Athas... sure, a world where open goodness would mean quick slaughter - but considering you can take a godless world and figure out a cool way to include Clerics, I always thought the right player (or designer) could include paladins in a neat way. Never ran into a player interested in playing on in my games, though.

REALLY!?

I have knowed at least 3 "only paladin in Athas"... all followers of the good (not any deity) and all had short lives.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm not sure, Athas was extremely isolated, but not cut-off completely. I mean, there are examples like the ancient githyanki invasion, and weren't there Athasian characters in Ravenloft and Planescape? I don't think I would make planehopping a major focus of DS (and I doubt that planar material will get more than a few pages in the CS), but I don't think I would make it completely impossible to do so.

"Ancient" as in "before the apocalypse" as in "has no effect on current game play," sure. And the unique instances of plane-hopping Athasians are pretty much exactly what I'm talking about: It might happen if the DM decides it can happen, but the book, I think, needs to assume it's NOT happening. Because if it was happening often enough to mention, it would essentially remove a chunk of the inescapable harshness that is part of the setting's appeal; saying "You have to endure this ecological apocalypse...unless you make some difficult skill checks" is an entirely different kind of feel than "You have to endure this ecological apocalypse." In the former, "Oh, it's tough, but I can get out." In the latter, it's just tough. You should not be able to get out.

Just like an out-of-race dragonmark. Sure, it can happen, if the DM decides it can happen, but the book assumes it's NOT happening. Because the established Houses already have history and flavor devoted to them, and it would ruin the dynamic to stick another one in there just because it's mechanically not prohibited.

Pacts with elementals are pretty much exactly how elemental clerics came to be in 2e...

That's a fair point. I can see elemental-pact warlocks, I think...

I don't see any issue with teleportation and planes. It "just works" in 4e - the definition of teleportation doesn't involve anything about stepping through other planes.

A lot of instances of the fluff would certainly disagree with you there. But a re-fluffing could be in order, and might be fine...but then it changes things kind of a lot. Not that it's a huge problem, but it can hurt the cross-compatability that you'd be shooting for in the first place; being an Eladrin High Wizard is no longer the same kind of thing in DS as it is in 90% of other fantasy settings that have no problem with planes of verdant magic laying alongside the mortal realm. That's part of DS's appeal, but also part of the issue if you want to maintain a lot of cross-compatability.

 

[Banshee16]

I only have one thing to say regarding this news - o/



Congrats on being one in a million (billion)!

Count me as #2 in a billion then. I loved the original boxed set but I liked the new boxed set.....possibly even more.

Banshee

 

[drothgery]

4e material in athas: Just as some guys already said, would be good to see athas versions of some races, and I think in some cases we just don´t will have any references if somethings exist or not in athas (letting each DM decide). There is any reference to swordmages in Eberron or Artificers in Toril? Also there is not any reference they don't exist in there, right? (seriously, i am right? I don' know for sure. hehe) Same thing may happen to certain elements of 4e in DS4e.

There aren't any explicit references to swordmages in Eberron (artificers in Toril would be kind of silly, as the FR books were out roughly a year before the Eberron books). However, it seems kind of crazy not to allow them; there are all sorts of strong warrior-mage traditions in Eberron (most notably the Knights Arcane in Aundair), and two of the Dragonmarked paragon paths (Deneith protector and Orien Swiftblade) seem to have been delibrately set up so swordmages could take them (with attack powers as Str or Int vs. AC)

 

[Banshee16]

I'm not sure, Athas was extremely isolated, but not cut-off completely. I mean, there are examples like the ancient githyanki invasion, and weren't there Athasian characters in Ravenloft and Planescape? I don't think I would make planehopping a major focus of DS (and I doubt that planar material will get more than a few pages in the CS), but I don't think I would make it completely impossible to do so.

It was never impossible to get onto the planes from Athas. Even in the original boxed set, clerics drew their spells from the elemental planes, and spellcasters could summon fiends from the planes.....who could then return to the planes when the spell ended.

In later products we learned that Dregoth traveled the planes, and that characters *could* get onto the planes....it was just difficult. Athas was surrounded by the Grey, a plane where memories etc. Dissolved in time. Characters could leave Athas and get stuck in the Grey, to eventually fade away, or, if they were skilled enough, they could leave the Grey and enter the Outer Planes. So it wasn't impossible.....just difficult.

Banshee

 

[Pour]

So will the announcement of Dark Sun have any influence on the PHB3 classes or mystery race? I suppose it already has with the Psionic classes. But there's also Primal and Divine to consider. Could Templar be a new divine class or Defiler a new Primal? I guess I just can't wrap my head around new Divine or Primal classes in general.

Also, has there been an official confirmation on the Dark Sun Player Guide?

 

[I'm A Banana]

So it wasn't impossible.....just difficult.

Right. And to make sure I'm being clear,the major issue is that treating star-pact warlocks and tieflings (assuming no re-fluffing) and Eladrin from the feywild who teleport by stepping in and out of this other plane as just fine means that it's not "difficult" any more.

If my powers and flavor and archetype depend on "otherworldly" influences, I'm going around channeling other planes in every adventure. Which does pretty much the opposite of signifying that Athas is isolated and functionally cut off from other planes. "Can't be that cut off! This bloke from beyond the stars who lives in a land of magic came through here just when I was a kid, gave me magical powers in exchange for my soul, and now loans them to me on a daily basis!"

If it happens as an exception to the rule, that's pretty OK. I agree that there shouldn't be mechanics preventing it -- like out-of-race dragonmarks or swordmages in Eberron, they can be there, without being called out.

If it happens as a rule, it hurts the feel of the setting IMO.

And the elemental stuff is pretty OK, too, if it's not over-done (it's probably not the solution to everything, but it'll probably also work for a lot of things ).