It's Dark Sun

[SSquirrel]

But I think, in general, the tools should be suited to the task: the game elements you use for a setting should be part of that setting, not part of some other setting and forced in just to pursue some abstract goal of perfect unification of all disparate elements.

And this is true, but if they are able to look at the things you don't think should be in there and find good uses for them that enhance the setting in a positive way, they would be stupid to rule them out just b/c they didn't originate in 2E DS.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And this is true, but if they are able to look at the things you don't think should be in there and find good uses for them that enhance the setting in a positive way, they would be stupid to rule them out just b/c they didn't originate in 2E DS.

I'm not a purist about it. If the hammer makes sense, use it. There's no reason to give us new stats for Athasian elves if the basic 4e elf stats work fine (ditto halflnigs, dwarves, whatever). Maybe an alternate racial encounter power to re-enforce the different flavor, but whatever.

But if there's no compelling reason to use it (like the Feywild, like the Far Realm, like the Divine power source, like Eladrin, like Tieflings), there's no point in trying to force the square peg through the round hole. Probably you'll only get it halfway through anyway, and then you'll have neither a peg nor a hole anymore, you'll just have some sort of half-stuck peghole mutant that nobody can use (as, some would argue, 4e FR turned out to be. ).

With Athas enjoying the lizard/bug side of the critter palette, I see no reason that Dragonborn can't fit, for instance. Re-fluffed and maybe with a new racial power (and renamed, perhaps), they fit pretty well, and add a "lizard person" option for PC's that really would enhance Dark Sun, I think (since we've already got "bug people" with the Thri-Kreen).

IMO, extremists are for religion and politics, not so much for RPG settings. I'm a functionalist: if it works, use it, if it doesn't work, drop it. The time and effort spent trying to make something fit could instead be spent making a friggin' round peg.

 

[Stogoe]

I like much of Eberron, though I hate that they wanted it to have everything... like Drow.

Eberron was explicitly created to have everything in it. That was the whole point of the setting search.

 

[the8bitdeity]

Eberron was explicitly created to have everything in it. That was the whole point of the setting search.

Plus Drow in Eberron are NOT your typical Drow from Faerun.

 

[coyote6]

Doesn't have to be. If the divine power source -- more than four entire classes -- isn't part of the assumption, than I don't see why the Feywild is sacrosanct.

Speaking of divine classes -- couldn't they just reassign all the divine classes to other power sources, and keep the classes, powers, etc. intact? So, clerics and avengers get tossed in Primal, paladins become psionic (or whatever) -- something like that?

Or just reskin the whole divine power source -- perhaps make it something connected to the Sorcerer Kings, so that "Divine" in Dark Sun is actually "Templar" or whatever.

<insert standard disclaimer: I don't play 4e much>

 

[Henry]

Oh, I do have to say, I can REALLY SEE a cadre of "templar" paladins defending King Kalak from all threats, with his retinue of Warlocks with the Sorcerer-King pact ashing the local flora as they toss off bolts of hellish green fire...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Speaking of divine classes -- couldn't they just reassign all the divine classes to other power sources, and keep the classes, powers, etc. intact?

That's actually the route I THOUGHT they were going to go. They re-assign Primal to elements (makes total sense and works with the setting); they re-assign arcane to preserving/defiling (sure); they re-assign Divine to the sorcerer-kings ("Templars" are already pretty expressly divine).

They're maybe not doing that, though, at least according to the staff quote upthread.

It could be for a few reasons, aside from the "gods are dead" theory. One of the first that leaps to my head is that they don't want to encourage evil PC's, but any PC that got his power from a sorcerer-king would probably be pretty evil. And not the sort of distant "I'll get your soul someday" quasi-evil that is an infernal sorcerer, but expressly, obviously, in every city in the world, oppressively evil. It's hard for a Templar to go on adventures alongside a freedom-fighting Mul. It's hard for them to hang out at a bar together. It's hard for them not to kill each other on sight.

Though it excites me that they're willing to even consider dropping an entire power source like that, because it means their brains are thinking as far out of the box as they might go with 4e, and that's exactly what I've been waiting for since the limitations of the edition were first announced.

 

[SSquirrel]

Glad to see that if they come up with good reasons to keep them around that you won't still be against it. I had to wonder there for a bit KM

I could see someone not being pure evil and being a Templar. They could be seeking revenge and on the inside is the best route for them. They may have to do some things they find repellent, but in their mind it is serving the greater good to achieve their goals. They could just be doing it b/c it's the only way for them to survive. Maybe it eats them up at night and they try and keep their own goals, but it gets so hard when so many around you are cruel and vicious.

Henry>I so love that mental picture as well, sounds pretty darn cool to me.

4E and limitations>See I don't choose to look at the options I don't have from 3E and see limitations, I look at the things I can do now or even just the things that are much easier to do now and go with that. I have a friend that always has the exact character in her head that she wanst to play. Many times she rolls poorly and then sulks b/c she doesn't have the stats to support her idea. Most of the time I either have a few possibilities in mind or nothing and just start rolling stats. An idea presents itself and as I start picking things like skills and gear a history and personality starts forming itself.

It may be that since I'm already used to filling in on what is needed and being a bit more easy going about my characters that I'm not bothered by some of the 4E simplifications. Or maybe I'm just getting old

 

[Andor]

Did we miss this bit?

According to this link what they said was:

“We are going to try very hard not to shoehorn 4e conceits into Dark Sun” said Bill, to which Andy added that they’re going to examine how things have evolved on other D&D worlds, then seeing how that same thing would evolve on Dark Sun.

Andy's comment on looking at how things would evolve on Athas makes me think they are going to lean towards having an Athasian version of the Feywild, unless maybe I'm reading too much into that.

You know, the line about 4e conceits made me think... The 4e alignment bar is a poor fit for Athas. 4e goes LG-G-N-E-CE. Where as on Athas the primary line of conflict is closer to LE vs CG. Two alignments that no longer exist. O_O Frex who the heck is LG on Athas? What kind hearted person believes in reforming the system from within when the system consists of an immortal, evil God-Emperor and his henchmen? Conversely the sharp contrast between the chaotic perils of the desert like raiders and monters and the organized, regimented, civilized evil of the city-states is softened a bit by the loss of the LE vs CE axis.

Not exactly a game killing problem of course, but irksome.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

According to this link what they said was:


Andy's comment on looking at how things would evolve on Athas makes me think they are going to lean towards having an Athasian version of the Feywild, unless maybe I'm reading too much into that.

You know, the line about 4e conceits made me think... The 4e alignment bar is a poor fit for Athas. 4e goes LG-G-N-E-CE. Where as on Athas the primary line of conflict is closer to LE vs CG. Two alignments that no longer exist. O_O Frex who the heck is LG on Athas? What kind hearted person believes in reforming the system from within when the system consists of an immortal, evil God-Emperor and his henchmen? Conversely the sharp contrast between the chaotic perils of the desert like raiders and monters and the organized, regimented, civilized evil of the city-states is softened a bit by the loss of the LE vs CE axis.

Not exactly a game killing problem of course, but irksome.

I dunno the feeling of doing what it takes to survive, keeping your head low to avoid the Sorcerer-Kings and what not is a perfect match for Unaligned. I think Unaligned vs. Evil could be the ballpark for 4e Dark Sun. 4e Evil can copy order quite well, given the text talks about:

Evil characters don’t necessarily go out of their way to hurt people, but they’re perfectly willing to take advantage of the weakness of others to acquire what they want.

Evil characters use rules and order to maximize personal gain. They don’t care whether laws hurt other people. They support institutional structures that give them power, even if that power comes at the expense of others’ freedom. Slavery and rigid caste structures are not only acceptable but desirable to evil characters, as long as they are in a position to benefit from them.