CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I know what you mean. This is two-thirds of the reason why I don't post as much as I used to.
It's hard to avoid arguing
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
IME, there are two types of arguments here on EnWorld
1) Reasoned discusion where the debate moves from a point of contention, resolves that contention and then moves to the next.
2) Discussion that can be boiled down to a debate over a single point and both sides refusing to move from thier stated POV.
THe former is great and I love to debate, argue, and get into some heated disagreements on.
Regretfully the former is more likely and I have heavily curtailed my posting frequency.... and edit pretty much anything I post here.
Its actually been a useful practice to translate to my professional work life
So, to answer JoeGKushner.. I will keep up the good fight with you, Raven Crowking, HyperSmurf, and a select few others that have proven that they can argue without getting stuck.
I have not used the ignore list option... I prefer the reminders as to why I am ignoring someone. Besides, the eternal optimist {that I am not} says that people can change!
Jack99
Adventurer
Some days, it's not hard to avoid. Then comes the bad days, and I find it so much easier to get annoyed by something or someone, and I forget that I promised myself to be a good boy. Luckily for me, we have some great mods around here, who help keep weak-willed people such as myself in check.
I do not personally believe in the /ignore function. I think everybody has good points at one time or another. In all my years online, I have only ever /ignored one person, and that was in a MMO. He was called Hittler and spamming racial slurs against Jews in the common channel. According to the GM, they received 400+ reports in less than 20 second, a new record at the time.
I do not personally believe in the /ignore function. I think everybody has good points at one time or another. In all my years online, I have only ever /ignored one person, and that was in a MMO. He was called Hittler and spamming racial slurs against Jews in the common channel. According to the GM, they received 400+ reports in less than 20 second, a new record at the time.
Victim
First Post
It's rare, but I have seen people change their mind. And even if I'm not changing anyone's mind, the process of formulating a post to defend or attack a position can help me sharpen or define my own thoughts on the matter, as I go from a general disagreement to looking at reasons, providing evidence, etc.
Of course, the key word there is can. Some posts are purely emotional or circular. Not a whole lot can be done there, especially when people often don't like when others try to address their reasons for not liking something.. Others can be so overdone that all the arguments and counterarguments have been posted several times already - a post is just chipping in with a prepackaged statement; there's not a whole lot of new thought being put into it.
I sort of thought the point of a messageboard was to argue with people. If everyone agreed, what would there be to talk about? A whole thread of people saying the same thing is pretty redundant.
Of course, the key word there is can. Some posts are purely emotional or circular. Not a whole lot can be done there, especially when people often don't like when others try to address their reasons for not liking something.. Others can be so overdone that all the arguments and counterarguments have been posted several times already - a post is just chipping in with a prepackaged statement; there's not a whole lot of new thought being put into it.
I sort of thought the point of a messageboard was to argue with people. If everyone agreed, what would there be to talk about? A whole thread of people saying the same thing is pretty redundant.
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
I'm a huge believer in the concept that I can disagree with someone's point, and that doesn't make them a bad person*. And I'll tell you, when stepping in as a moderator I often have to exercise every single ounce of self-control I have not to scream "What are you saying? You're a freaking idiot to claim that! Arggh, banbanbanbanBAN!"
But I've learned not to moderate when I'm really tired or in a particularly bad mood, and I've learned to step back when moderating a subject that's really important to me.
Most people here are really interesting and reasonable. A few folks end up unable to shift off a point; we inevitable warn them, and they either get better or leave. A few folks, mostly bullies, go out of their way to pick fights, and I feel no regret about bidding them adieu.
Thing is, though, I hate babysitting. Some of my favorite posters had a rough start, and I'd rather give people the opportunity to act like adults than I would ban indiscriminately. It's only after a few repeats of showing that they can't handle polite conversation that we boot folks; I always feel bad about the threads that are sullied in the mean time (and we work to minimize those), but I think it's better for the boards and the community in the long run.
* There are a few exceptions. If you voted against bullywugs on WotC's latest poll, watch your back, buddy. Just saying.
But I've learned not to moderate when I'm really tired or in a particularly bad mood, and I've learned to step back when moderating a subject that's really important to me.
Most people here are really interesting and reasonable. A few folks end up unable to shift off a point; we inevitable warn them, and they either get better or leave. A few folks, mostly bullies, go out of their way to pick fights, and I feel no regret about bidding them adieu.
Thing is, though, I hate babysitting. Some of my favorite posters had a rough start, and I'd rather give people the opportunity to act like adults than I would ban indiscriminately. It's only after a few repeats of showing that they can't handle polite conversation that we boot folks; I always feel bad about the threads that are sullied in the mean time (and we work to minimize those), but I think it's better for the boards and the community in the long run.
* There are a few exceptions. If you voted against bullywugs on WotC's latest poll, watch your back, buddy. Just saying.
What I find vexing is the amount of people here that are completely unconcerned with playing the game, how to get better at playing the game, but fascinated with running circles around academic and rhetorical theories about the validity of opinions and stances.
For example? I post in a thread where a guy is geniunely asking for help on how to improve his game. I post many details, guidances, tips, etc that I think will actually and practically help this guy. Among those things I post, I include an explanatory passage where I say I don't do any "roleplaying" even though I play 4e because my players think it's silly, and I like the boardgaming aspect of the game more.
What do you think happens? A nice discussion of what the various tips and details of my game imply and how the might or might not improve somebody else's game? Heavens, no... I am immediately dunked in a splice-thread line-by-line rebuttal of how what I do IS actually "roleplaying", and the definition of what "roleplaying" is.
Never mind the OP and helping him; never mind the topic of the thread. Clearly my saying that I don't roleplay is bigger than any of that; it MUST be stamped out.
This is something that happens time and time and time again around here. I originally arrived in these forums thinking something like "Wow, a bunch of people who game and who help each other learn how to game better", now it's more like "Lets argue about who really roleplays and who doesn't, and then about whether WotC is evil or not".
(Edit -> And don't even get me started on the whole "Help, my 4e combats grind" ---> "No they don't! What grind? I dont see any grind. The solution is that your combats don't actually grind," thing.)
But eh, of course everybody's entitled to say what they want, I'm noone to stop them from doing so, it just gets a little.. vexing sometimes.
For example? I post in a thread where a guy is geniunely asking for help on how to improve his game. I post many details, guidances, tips, etc that I think will actually and practically help this guy. Among those things I post, I include an explanatory passage where I say I don't do any "roleplaying" even though I play 4e because my players think it's silly, and I like the boardgaming aspect of the game more.
What do you think happens? A nice discussion of what the various tips and details of my game imply and how the might or might not improve somebody else's game? Heavens, no... I am immediately dunked in a splice-thread line-by-line rebuttal of how what I do IS actually "roleplaying", and the definition of what "roleplaying" is.
Never mind the OP and helping him; never mind the topic of the thread. Clearly my saying that I don't roleplay is bigger than any of that; it MUST be stamped out.
This is something that happens time and time and time again around here. I originally arrived in these forums thinking something like "Wow, a bunch of people who game and who help each other learn how to game better", now it's more like "Lets argue about who really roleplays and who doesn't, and then about whether WotC is evil or not".
(Edit -> And don't even get me started on the whole "Help, my 4e combats grind" ---> "No they don't! What grind? I dont see any grind. The solution is that your combats don't actually grind," thing.)
But eh, of course everybody's entitled to say what they want, I'm noone to stop them from doing so, it just gets a little.. vexing sometimes.
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Jack7
First Post
I'm with PS and PC on this one.
Debate is great for the soul, and it helps people to improve and hone and test their ideas.
Arguing just for the sake of saying, "you're an idiot," or whatever the insult du jour, it ain't made for me.
I'll just bow out.
If someone gets all riled up by my viewpoint, then I've always got my blog or some other place to say my piece. Or, not say it, if it's not really important enough to waste my time thinking about.
Debate is great for the soul, and it helps people to improve and hone and test their ideas.
Arguing just for the sake of saying, "you're an idiot," or whatever the insult du jour, it ain't made for me.
I'll just bow out.
If someone gets all riled up by my viewpoint, then I've always got my blog or some other place to say my piece. Or, not say it, if it's not really important enough to waste my time thinking about.
Oh, I fight the good fight. I'm very set in my ways, opinionated, and I ain't budging once I dig in my trench. Anything else is losing face. My knee jerk reflex is mighty! I love a good fight, it gets my blood flowing. But it consumes me completely. I'm only interested in being right and seeing others tell me how right I am.
But, I too have been taking some steps.
First and foremost: Admit the above to myself. If I know how I behave, I can react to it. I know I've got a thin skin, a huge ego, a delicate pride, and poor impulse control. So I got to prevent the temptation, rather than depend on my weak judgment.
So first, I avoid threads where I have no business going. I'm not stepping into a 3e thread, or a Pathfinder thread, because I have no interest in those, and those involved are better off without me. I want them to enjoy themselves in their own corner.
Then is something I've been trying: once I've dug my trench, and defended my point, let it go. Once you're in an argument where neither side is going to budge, and you're just re-hashing your original point, there's no reason to continue. Otherwise, it's an exercise in dragging it out.
Finally, I keep my ignore list firmly in place. Out of sight, out of mind.
But, I too have been taking some steps.
First and foremost: Admit the above to myself. If I know how I behave, I can react to it. I know I've got a thin skin, a huge ego, a delicate pride, and poor impulse control. So I got to prevent the temptation, rather than depend on my weak judgment.
So first, I avoid threads where I have no business going. I'm not stepping into a 3e thread, or a Pathfinder thread, because I have no interest in those, and those involved are better off without me. I want them to enjoy themselves in their own corner.
Then is something I've been trying: once I've dug my trench, and defended my point, let it go. Once you're in an argument where neither side is going to budge, and you're just re-hashing your original point, there's no reason to continue. Otherwise, it's an exercise in dragging it out.
Finally, I keep my ignore list firmly in place. Out of sight, out of mind.
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I will admit being in a bad mood since Thursday evening... when a game I worked hard to prepare for never happened.
The local 4.0E game in town ended when three of the five players other than myself either moved, or had family issues. We only ran ten games.
My on-line 3.5E game has pretty much came to a halt, for whatever reason.
I joined a new 4.0E game, and we've played for a half year now. We lost one DM due to a job change, and we are about to lose our second DM (and his wife) due to a job transfer. I travel an hour 15 minutes to that game, and it will continue, but another 20 minutes further away. That's too far to travel on a work night.
I ran an 8th level Delve Night for that group on another night for three weeks, and it went well. So I wanted to try DMing 4.0E again.
The local store owner said he had five or six players, but no DM. I volunteered, and despite that a 16th level adventure was a stretch for me (along with the the new PHB2 characters that I haven't seen played yet), I put alot of prep time into the game and in understanding the basics of the 16 character classes.
The game flopped, nobody showed up or bothered to email. Yeah I was a bit pissed.
I apologize if I've pissed anyone here off, that has not been my intention.
I specifically want to apologize to Pirate Cat who had to clean up after one of my rants, and to Rechan, who that rant was directed toward.
Whew... that's better, I got that out of my system.
The local 4.0E game in town ended when three of the five players other than myself either moved, or had family issues. We only ran ten games.
My on-line 3.5E game has pretty much came to a halt, for whatever reason.
I joined a new 4.0E game, and we've played for a half year now. We lost one DM due to a job change, and we are about to lose our second DM (and his wife) due to a job transfer. I travel an hour 15 minutes to that game, and it will continue, but another 20 minutes further away. That's too far to travel on a work night.
I ran an 8th level Delve Night for that group on another night for three weeks, and it went well. So I wanted to try DMing 4.0E again.
The local store owner said he had five or six players, but no DM. I volunteered, and despite that a 16th level adventure was a stretch for me (along with the the new PHB2 characters that I haven't seen played yet), I put alot of prep time into the game and in understanding the basics of the 16 character classes.
The game flopped, nobody showed up or bothered to email. Yeah I was a bit pissed.
I apologize if I've pissed anyone here off, that has not been my intention.
I specifically want to apologize to Pirate Cat who had to clean up after one of my rants, and to Rechan, who that rant was directed toward.
Whew... that's better, I got that out of my system.
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