It's the Actions Economy, Stupid!

[Bishmon]

As does my rebuttal.

So Wands of Fireball are unbalanced because they aren't balanced against Magic Missile?

If the wand of fireball is effectively replacing a wizard's magic missile in his suite of powers, then absolutely that's not balanced in the encounter sense. You said as much.

Magic items that are not free actions, or do not add actions are not going to matter in terms of encounter balance unless they are out of line with class powers for their level.

You said that secondary items won't affect encounter balance as long as they're not out of line with class powers for their level. So as long as a 5th level magic item is roughly equal to 5th level class powers, encounters won't be affected because the secondary items are adding options, not power.

But the point I made was that an item's powers won't always, or probably even often, replace a class' powers of that level. Instead, they'll be used to replace powers of a lower level that the character is still using.

For example, say a wizard has a 5th level power that lets him use a lightning bolt once per encounter. He also theoretically has a 1st level power that lets him use magic missile once per encounter. If he gets a 5th level item that lets him use fireball once per encounter, that's presumably balanced against his 5th level power. But he's not going to use that 5th level item to replace the 5th level power; he's going to use it to replace that 1st level power. Instead of his first two spells being lightning bolt and magic missile, they'll now be lightning bolt and fireball. Since that 5th level item is replacing a 1st level power, that absolutely effects encounter balance.

So yeah, if a wand of fireballs is effectively replacing a wizard's magic missiles in terms of what he then uses in encounters, and presuming that fireballs are a higher level than magic missiles, that hits at exactly what you said, and certainly affects encounter balance.

The 10th level fighter will have many abillities that outstrip the level 1 ability.

Possibly. Depends on what role the particular powers play.

But that was just an example. Unless each class gets five new powers every level, they're going to in some way end up using lower level powers during encounters.

 

[Xyl]

I think you're making an important mistaken assumption: that a 5th level power will be better than a 1st level power. If you look at the paladin class powers you saw, you'll see that they all do the same amount of damage, they just have different secondary effects. In other words, the higher-level class powers mostly add options without changing the math.

 

[The Shadow]

For example, say a wizard has a 5th level power that lets him use a lightning bolt once per encounter. He also theoretically has a 1st level power that lets him use magic missile once per encounter. If he gets a 5th level item that lets him use fireball once per encounter, that's presumably balanced against his 5th level power. But he's not going to use that 5th level item to replace the 5th level power; he's going to use it to replace that 1st level power. Instead of his first two spells being lightning bolt and magic missile, they'll now be lightning bolt and fireball. Since that 5th level item is replacing a 1st level power, that absolutely effects encounter balance.

I actually suspect, based on the paladin Smites, that powers vary relatively little in damage output - they all go up in damage with level. The higher level abilities just get better 'extras' on top.

A 5th level wizard's Magic Missle may do comparable damage to the same wizard's Fireball - it's just that the Fireball is area-effect.

This doesn't negate your point, but it does seem to ameliorate it somewhat. And I admit that "at-will" powers are likely to be weaker than per-encounter ones.

 

[Bishmon]

I think you're making an important mistaken assumption: that a 5th level power will be better than a 1st level power.

You're right, I'm certainly making that assumption. I feel pretty safe with it, too.

 

[Vysirez]

You're right, I'm certainly making that assumption. I feel pretty safe with it, too.

I agree, I think a higher level power will be better then a lower level one. Essentially more useful, though not always numerically superior. I have no problem with this and in fact I expect it. I'm fairly sure that you do as well, but I'm not sure if you have stated that or not.

Assuming we are all ok with that, I can see your point. If 5th lvl items are as good as 5th lvl powers, then if you get a 5th lvl item at 5th level as a pc, it will likely be a power increase, since you only have 1 or 2 5th level powers. However my expectation is that 5th level items will tend to grant abiltiies that are on par with somewhat lower level powers. Simply because they are items, and thus available to everyone.

So if you are 9th lvl and get a 9th lvl item, and it is about on-par with a 6-7th lvl power, then it's something that would be useful but not always required.

Yes, i will admit, it's almost impossible to create items that players view as useful and wanted, and still avoid having the items cause an increase in effective power. Even if it's only in specific situations. I guess the difference between my POV and the impression I've gotten from you is that I am ok with a small power increase from items in order to keep them interesting. I believe it is possible to strike a balance between useful and overpowered. But the impression I've gotten from you is that any kind of power increase from magic items is not acceptable since it will then become "required" and cause power creep and christmas tree like symptoms.

If you don't think that, then what level of power increase would be acceptable? I admit that there are some abilities that are problematic, often ones to do with movement, or an increase in ability without requiring an action, Flying is a good example of both. However those problems exsist with those abilities pretty much no matter what. So if you either do or don't allow those kind of abilities into the game. They are kinda all or nothing. However that is not every ability, IMO it's the smaller portion of the possbilities for magic items rather then the larger one.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Guideposts are certainly useful, but I question their ability to apply across all of the varied ground that has, up to this point, been D&D. I'm not saying that this is a worthless thing to have, merely that given the limited time and resources of the development team, this is effort best spent elsewhere. I do agree that 3e's system of using Wealth by level assumptions tied to GP value of magic items as a guidepost was a terrible idea. It was, in my opinion, worse than nothing because it lead directly to the much decried "magic WalMart".



Less on the main topic I want to address this for a minute;



It's always useful to learn from those with more experience, but this is something of a two edged sword. If you (and by "you" I mean the "universal" DM here) learn from Mearls mistakes largely in place of your own, you'll be learning how to play his game, not yours. It sounds strange to say, but the strength of D&D has always, in my opinion, been the relationship between the DM and the players. You really need to learn what works for your group and what doesn't. You have to run those terrible games once or twice to learn what not to do. You have to get a feel for what your player's expectations are at the table, and then you need to flesh out those expectations through actual play. You learn to adapt the game to the way that you play as a unique group, and you tweak the play experience to really make the game your own. When it really works you get an experience that is social, creative, dynamic, and most of all extremely entertaining. In my opinion the ability of groups to come together and find "their" game is being diminished, and that's a slow death for the hobby, or at least for the aspect of the hobby that keeps my group coming back to the table.

Hmmm.... bit of a long walk from magic item rules, huh?

Indeed. What works for me in my campaign with my players is usually not determined by things like magical item availability or power, but more from the kind of stories we enjoy or what kind of characters we play. That has little to do with how game balance is achieved, as long as it is achieved.
The "railroading to free-form exploration" balance and the "role-playing vs. butt-kicking" balance is something entirely different type of thing that's also important to us, and I am not seeing the effect of magical items on that. I am seeing the DMG giving some good tools and advice for these, but not proscribing it in anyway.

 

[Frostmarrow]

As said in a different post:

A flying fighter may have an easier time getting to a flying enemy, but maybe it actually is not his only/best option.

Fighters can´t fly without magic. But they should know how to use a bow, or gain cover behind a tower shield. And maybe they know how to stike a flyer in the right moment with their axe to break a wing, or use a hook with a rope to get the flyer down.

Be creative.

That said: i am glad magical items are in the game, and i kind of like the implementation in general.

Fighters don't fly - they ride.

 

[Dayen]

It's not so much a question of "will magic items be balanced against class abilities at the level they become available?" We all know the answer to that: it depends entirely on the DM.

The real question, that you all seem to be missing, is "will this be a rock-paper-scissors style game like 3e where class x defeats class y which defeats class z which defeats class x?" With any luck, no. Despite the fact that Fighters are Defenders and their primary tools are for controlling large groups of enemies, there's little doubt that a level 10 Fighter should pose a serious threat to a level 10 Warlock, who is primarily a Striker. Methodology varies from class to class, but the result needs to be the same: a chance to kick anything that gets in their way's ass soundly.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Magic items that are not free actions, or do not add actions are not going to matter in terms of encounter balance unless they are out of line with class powers for their level.

We've been told that the "optional" magic items don't affect the power level because they add new options, and don't improve your existing ones.

If you gave a 3E wizard the "spells per day" as listed, but let them use ANY spell from the lists without need for preparation or even having it in their spellbook, you would increase the class's power. Versatility = Power.

 

[Sir Brennen]

We've been told that the "optional" magic items don't affect the power level because they add new options, and don't improve your existing ones.

If you gave a 3E wizard the "spells per day" as listed, but let them use ANY spell from the lists without need for preparation or even having it in their spellbook, you would increase the class's power. Versatility = Power.

There's a huge difference between being able to cast ANY spell and having a couple of items that let you use one ability (based off of a spell) x times per day (especially if that ability isn't always beneficial based on circumstance.)

But yes, to a (very small) degree you're right. And Mike Mearls addressed that in the post quoted in the 4E news article:

Strictly speaking, the fighter with no items is less powerful than the fighter with a ton of items, yet if the campaign tends toward few or no items, the game still functions fine. For instance, the math behind monsters looks to magic items only for the static bonuses that they grant.

Primarily, the benefits conferred by magic items are useful in specific situations or they cater to specific tactics. Many also are limited in scope, such as providing a benefit for the length of one encounter per day.

Also, since items have their appropriate level indicated, we can probably safely assume that any benefits they have are on par with the abilities of characters at that level. A handful of magical items, particularly ones that are given fairly different abilities based on item slot (i.e., not all secondary items can give a fighter more options on what to do with his sword), aren't going to added to the versatility of a character anywhere near the degree of your extreme example.