I've experienced D&D4

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I've been DMing for 30 plus years as well. I run combat very quickly relative to other DMs I've played with. But my experience with high level Age of Worms matches yours.

Ken

Our Age of Worms campaign ended with a TPK in a battle against a certain
VIP dragon who shall remain nameless.

The battle only lasted 20 rounds, because that was how long the Protection from Negative Energy spell lasted. Once that wore off, and every character started taking 20ish damage a round everyone died.

That was the last game of 3e we played.

We took a long hiatus of playing boardgames waiting over wintertime for 4e pre-play info to start leaking out.

I don't really love 4e myself. There are many things I like more about 3e, but now that we are up to 14th level 4e characters I can say without a doubt that I am thankful the play at higher levels (while still more complicated than lower levels) is much less of a brainbuster than it was in 4e.

DS
 

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Here's the thing that I think many folks fail to get - if you really dislike an entire edition, there's little to be gained by coming into an internet forum and declaring your dislike. If your mind is pretty much made up, and you aren't looking for insight that might lead you to reconsider your opinion, what is the point? Wouldn't you would be far better served to simply not play it, and ignore posts about the edition you don't like, and concentrate on things you do like?

That's well said. The thing about internet fora is that they are at their best when people are helping one another out. Answering questions. Offering recommendations. Keeping a positive attitude even when they disagree.

The problem with exclusively negative posts is that they don't really take advantage of that purpose. A "I don't like Wafflestorm: the RPG" comment can go in a positive direction if, say, the poster says "what am I missing? Why do you guys like it?" and legitimately wants answers. However, if the poster just wants validation, then anything that isn't validation stirs up resentment, including posters who are legitimately trying to help by answering questions and offering recommendations. And if there's nothing but validation for a negative opinion, then the thread is by default negative. Cathartic to some posters, perhaps, but negative.

It's a sticky thing because human beings do like validation. We like to feel that we're not alone. Unfortunately, seeking validation in negative opinions rather than positive ones does kind of scatter a forum with landmines. I don't think it's wrong to do so, and if everything remains relatively polite it can even be a benefit. I think it's just naturally likely to make a forum a less pleasant place.
 


Add another to the "Dragonblade spoke for me" contingent. I'll expand further, though.

I whined and cajoled until the group switched from 2e to 3e, during that era. I was playing an alt-mage (exhaustion rules or some such) and was eager to convert to a sorcerer. 3e also read absolutely awesome. When I started playing 3e, it still felt like D&D, but after five or so years, it really didn't. The simplicity was gone. I could build a high-level, non-wizard PC in 1e in 15 minutes and whip out NPCs on the fly. I never did learn to do that with 3e. It was too complex and just too vast. What wasn't obvious, when 3e came out, was how important feats were going to be, not to mention the magic items and harsh balance. It really just played different, IMO. By the end, if not earlier, it was as far removed from 1e (the standard by which I measure "D&D") as 4e is. It simply diverged in a different way.

I really liked 4e, initially. Part of that, I'm sure, was that I wanted anything but 3e/3.5e, which I can't imagine ever DMing again. But, I think 4e has some great elements, on its own. I like the new defenses and the new skills rules, which are more granular than the 2e NWP, but not as wild as 3e skills.

That said, there are aspects I don't much care for. Dragonborn have rather grown on me, but they're about the only new race that has -- most of them would be best left as a note in the back of a Monster Manual. I don't like the "creature cantina" racial salad. I don't care for the de-humanoidization of angels, fae, and probably some other classic monsters. Most of those are minor, though, and easily reflavored.

I'm finding that the power cards aren't quite as cool as I thought they'd be. They don't suck, but there are some issues. The magic items pretty much do suck and the rituals are too costly -- and bland. There isn't enough variation in the power sources for my taste, either. I'd prefer to see each with differing rules, at least as unique as psionics looks to be.

I still haven't gotten the hang of "instant foes", but that's probably a skill I just need to practice. Once I can turn out human(ish) foes of any level, and do it off-the-cuff, I'll be pretty happy with it. Surprisingly, I'm finding I like the new "pre-baked" Monster Manuals because of this. I just wish there was more flavor to the entries because I honestly have no idea what to tell the players about some of the critters.

Finally, I'm growing fairly concerned that the expanding lists of powers is going to end up doing to 4e what feats did to 3e. You want to be able to do something? No problem. There's a power for that. Just pick from this list of 1,000. Blech. I know I don't have to buy the books, and I'm not. But, I still get an uneasy feeling about it.

Is 4e D&D? I don't know. It's not the game Gary created but I don't think 3e was, either. If 3e is D&D, then 4e is a contender for that title, too. It just depends on what you consider the key bits of D&D. I loathe "Vancian", quantum casters, and generally house-ruled something to remedy that (in 3e, I used the UA point system), so that loss doesn't bother me. I'm actually much more put off by both the loss of the humanocentrism and the general expectation that the PCs will end up with stats above 18 -- or start with them. A single 20 seems remarkable, and multiple stats at that level still feels Monte Haul. If you played 1e differently, though, you're going to have a different definition and feeling.

As far as having to try the game before passing judgement, I can see both sides. Personally, I think the rules really do read significantly different than they play. That's probably a failing on the part of the writers, just like the horrible modules and flavorless monsters.

But, I have yet to see "good anime" and want to punch people when they insist I watch just one more flick. Sometimes, you can see an inherent "flaw" without steeping in the subject matter for too long. There are also some systems that just don't work for certain people -- I'll stop gaming before I ever play GURPS again. But, enough people love that system that I can't really blame someone for disliking 4e D&D, even if I don't totally agree with their reasons.

In short, I like where 4e went, compared to 3e. I think it represents more of a branch of D&D running parellel to 3e than a decendent of 3e. I do think 4e could use another iteration, though, to really hammer out some of the concepts. I hope that, when 5e does show, I can look at that in the same light a lot of people look at Pathfinder as hammering out some of the kinks of 3e.
 

Ah the classic comeback to it does not feel like D&D to me. No wotc says it's D&D it is end of story. Some folks can't let other folks have an opinion without pointing out how wrong they are it seems.

Classic or not, it's irrelevant. It IS D&D period. (And yes because WotC says so).

If your opinion is that it's not, you are wrong, period. Contrary to popular belief opinions can be wrong.

It's a completely different claim to say it doesn't feel like D&D to you. That's an actual opinion. One I can contest but I can't claim that you're not feeling that. How could I know? All I do know is that I've been playing D&D for the better part of 30 years and it feels like D&D to me.

When you start throwing around phrases like "it's not D&D" you're the one trying to leverage hyperbole to dismiss other people's opinions. Not only are people who make that claim doing do in complete contradiction to observable fact, they're doing in a way whose intent is to imply someone's positive outlook on 4E is invalid since "it's not really D&D".


tl;dr: It IS D&D, no opinion you have is going to change that. No one said you can't have the opinion that it doesn't feel like D&D to you.
 
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I think that you can take 'to me' as a given any time you see 'it isn't D&D'. You'll accomplish more and argue less.

On the other hand... if WotC made a brand of salad dressing and called it D&D would it be D&D? If not, then the 'WotC says it is!' argument fails on some levels. (Yes, this is a straw man argument; no, it is not likely that WotC D&D brand Salad Dressing will be replacing Newman's Own anytime soon.)

So, I don't say it is not D&D, I just say that I don't like it. (And use stronger words when not having to worry about Eric's grandmother. I am kind of glad for his granny. :) )

The Auld Grump, if your cat had kittens in the oven, would you call them biscuits?
 

Classic or not, it's irrelevant. It IS D&D period. (And yes because WotC says so).

Shall I heare more, or shall I speake at this?
Iu. 'Tis but thy name that is my Enemy:
Thou art thy selfe, though not a Mountague,
What's Mountague? it is nor hand nor foote,
Nor arme, nor face, O be some other name
Belonging to a man.
What? in a names that which we call a Rose,
By any other word would smell as sweete,
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo cal'd,
Retaine that deare perfection which he owes,
Without that title Romeo, doffe thy name,
And for thy name which is no part of thee,
Take all my selfe
 

I skipped past most of this thread, but...

The original opinion expressed is a valid one. My personal experience with 4e has led me to the determination of it being a good "Intro RPG." 3.5 is a bit of a mess at this point, and not easy for people totally new to pencil and paper RPGs to pick up. One bad decision (with 3.5) in a character build at first level by a "n00b" and their character is doomed to be at best not fun to play and at worst dead really quickly.

4e has some proofing against that, which leads to some of the complaints about how everything feels a bit steral and video-gamey. However, the ease of use lets amateurs understand and pick it up really quick.

SW:Saga appears to be what people were wanting from 4e, although after DMing a few sessions of that I found it to be a pain to balance. Pathfinder does a good job rebalancing and cleaning up 4e, but at this point there is not a lot avalable specificially designed - which leads to some messy converting from 3.5/d20 books.

But, to each their own.
 

I agree. So how can we make it friendlier?
This is a very good question, and also one with a simple answer: don't be a jerk. I don't agree with Bullgrit's assertion (since I'm enjoying 4E) but I think he has presented his opinion in a non-confrontational and pretty classy way. I also think that on issues other than "is 4E D&D?" there's a lot to talk about and discuss in the realm of RPGs with ENWorlders...heck I'd sit down for a beer/glass of wine/soda...you name it with almost anyone on the boards because we have something in common: spending waaaay too much time here discussing RPGs. ;)

So the solution is to not bring negativity to the table, at least as much as humanly possible. Edition wars will remain, but we can all be civil and remember that we have more in common than we may realize.

--Steve
 

Don´t read this if you like pathfinder...

@pathfinder: rebalancing an cleaning up... ha ha... pathfinder most surely doesn´t feel like D&D... took everything into the wrong direction, seriously.

Pathfinder reads as if comes straight from a power gamers wet dream and requires system mastery from the begining.

D&D 3.0 didn´t need system mastery from the beginning. When you used it like ADnD with cleaner rules and more options it was wonderful. It bacame annoying, when people leaned to master and exploit its loopholes, and it had a lot of them... instead of fixing, pathfinder embraced those loopholes... and no, it doesn´t feel like the D&D i am grown up with.

I am sorry, but this had to be said...
 

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