I've finally figured out why 3rd edition bugs me

[francisca]

That's why you aren't. Instead, you buy vials of "deepest ocean water" from the gnome alchemist of the nearest FLACS (friendly local arcane component shop), along with the other components you'll need for the scroll.

That's why it costs you a certain number of gold pieces, for which a mechanical rule is given.

Well, that's fine if you have "Magic Shacks"* dotted througout the world. Some of us run games where such things are non-existent, or incredibly rare.

So, where do the spellcasters get their components? They either go find them, or they are ignored. Of course, given the whole Holy Grail view of balance in 3E, I can't help but wonder if costly material components are a mechanism for making certain spells harder to cast.



*For Gez and other non-US readers: This is a play on Radio Shack, a chain of stores which used to sell lots and lots of electronic components, but mostly sell consumer electronics and cell phones now.

 

[Narfellus]

Yes, there are oodles of difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions. The best way to have played the game, lucky for us older fogies, is to have played in all the incarnations, learning the ins and outs so we can pass it on, hopefully, to new players. Yeah, the 3rd edition is more rules-oriented and lacking in flavor, but the older rules were sort of clunky and less streamlined. It takes experience to meld together what one likes most out of the gaming genre.

 

[Gez]

I've something to say about that magic shack comment.

To me, there is a huge difference between an alchemist's shop that will sell components to alchemists and spellcasters; and a +2 Swords 'R' Us shop where you can buy completed magic items.

The existence of the former seems justified -- after all, you can buy a "spell component pouch" for what, 5 gp?

The existence of the latter, I do not like.

 

[francisca]

I've something to say about that magic shack comment.

To me, there is a huge difference between an alchemist's shop that will sell components to alchemists and spellcasters; and a +2 Swords 'R' Us shop where you can buy completed magic items.

Agreed. Enormous difference. And you know what? The Swords 'R' Us shop is perfectly valid too, for some groups. (Personally, if I want that, I'll play NetHack or Angband.)

The existence of the former seems justified -- after all, you can buy a "spell component pouch" for what, 5 gp?

Meh. I always like the idea of a Magicuser's robe being filled with a multitude of folds and hidden pockets to hold the components. But I can certainly understand some wizards may not like hopping about the multiverse dressed like Arthur Dent.

However, we are hitting around one of the aspects of 3E that rub me the wrong way: the implied/assumed level of magic in the CR/EL level system. I agree that based on the reading of the PHB and DMG, that the alchemist shop with spell componenents is reasonable, etc.. But the CR system breaks down (even more than normal) when you are running some 10th level guys with hardly any magic items. Note that this isn't some sort of crusade I'm on, and I realize that those of us who like gritty low-magic settings are the exception rather than the rule. I just don't like the idea of assuming an X level party is going to have a certain amount of magic.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

Heh. I knew, when I started this thread, that a lot of people would follow-up saying, "Dude, I'm *glad* there's more crunch in 3e! Who needs flavor text? Add your own!"

The problem that I've experienced these past three years is that although we can *say* we're going to add our own imaginative flavor, it seldom happens. 3e seems to play more like a strategy/war game.

The following exchange is typical:

PLAYER: I want to scribe a scroll. I've got X gp and I can afford to lose Y experience points.

DM [trying to add flavor]: Uh, okay. You need to track down an elusive old hermit who lives somewhere at the base of the Barrier Peaks. He's the only known alchemist in the area, and has reportedly created a magic ink from the blood of a dead beholder.

PLAYER: Why do I have to do that? That ain't in the RULEZ!

DM [sighs deeply]: Fine. You create your scroll.

PLAYER: Kewl! More POWERZ!

====

I'm exaggerating, but seriously, if you tone it down a notch, the above description fits my experiences with 3e thus far. This is over a span of three years, playing in different groups.

[Shrug] Maybe colorful flavor and vivid imagination are going out of style, being replaced by painfully precise mathematical rulesets and strategy-and-tactics. I don't know. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[francisca]

The problem that I've experienced these past three years is that although we can *say* we're going to add our own imaginative flavor, it seldom happens. 3e seems to play more like a strategy/war game.

Well, that is your experience. Prepare to be indunated with others telling you that they have had different experiences, and that you seem to have a mis-match between DM/Player expectations.

I will say this: There is nothing in the 3.x rulesets that forces you into a wargame mentality. There is nothing in the rules that force you into a videogame-ish sprint from one power up to another in search of more power.

But, the 3.x rules sure make it easy to play those sorts of games. Or at least easier to play those kind of games, when compared to older editions, at least in my experience.

 

[Incenjucar]

An idea:

Translate GP value required for CR level required.

That is, to make magic item X, you have to spend GP value Y, or deal with adventure CR Z to get the goods for free.

 

[Psion]

The problem that I've experienced these past three years is that although we can *say* we're going to add our own imaginative flavor, it seldom happens. 3e seems to play more like a strategy/war game.

My experience differs.

I have seen some truly fascinating characters in my game.

Just last night, I was reading through Valus, a d20 product based on a homebrew campaign and MARVELING at its depth.

I disagree with your assassment. If it plays like a wargame, IME that is because your players wanted to play a wargame. Plenty of us out there are using it to build an intriguing fantasy roleplaying experience.

You supposed exchange is so sarcastic, I don't see how you have the testicular fortitude to claim it's "typical." Only once in my entire roleplaying experience have I ever encountered a player who had the attitude "how dare you embellish the rules." And if they do, you can always refer them to step 0.

 

[smetzger]

I think it would be helpful if a 3rd party publisher stepped in and made up flavor text for what is needed for every standard magic item. It should of course be cross-listed by monster.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

You supposed exchange is so sarcastic, I don't see how you have the testicular fortitude to claim it's "typical."

I meant only that it is typical of what I, personally, have experienced in the past three years. I'm sincerely hoping to be shown that my typical experience is in fact far from typical for others!