I've finally figured out why 3rd edition bugs me

diaglo said:
after reading the 30 years of D&D book last night...

a lot of what people have been saying about the computer nature and numbers crunching and complexity of d02....etc...

is true at least according to Peter Adkison.

Well, it certainly lends itself to that kind of play, but nobody has shown up at my table with a sawed-off double barrel and made me play it like a video game.

Does it lend itself to videogame style of play more than previous versions? yeah, a little, in the sense that power-ups are a bit more incremental.

However, I think overall, the issue has more to do with the nature of the players rather than the difference in the rule sets. All versions of D&D include the following core components:

1) Defined archetypes with definite roles
2) Level-based system
3) Magic and HP as finite resources which need to be managed
4) A system which rewards characters with more power (resources and "stuff") as they gain experience.

Now, you, I, and others who cut our teeth on the older versions likely came into the game having read some fantasy fiction, played board and card games, and maybe played some miniature wargames. Kids starting after the mid-80's likely (not certainly) got their start in gaming, and maybe fantasy, via video games. The most telling anecdote of this effect is the youngster who asked EGG how to save games between levels.

But again, d20 has more in common with the previous editions than there are differences. At this point, I'm going to point to my signature, and walk away, *again*. :heh:
 

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Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Without that, the hobby will die and we'll get no new players.
Which is isn't a problem, for me. In fact, complete D&D noobs are much more welcome in my group than someone who has played before.

I'm not impressed with other gamers' baggage.
 

Ulorian said:
The illustrations are more familiar to those who play computer games??? Huh? Your Freudian slip is showing: I think what you mean here is that you think 3E is only good for computer GAMERZ who want the PHAT LEWT.

This thread was so interesting until this point, before which there were intelligent, reasoned replies from both sides, instead of name-calling (albeit subtle i.e. passive-aggressive name-calling in this case).
woah! No need to put words into my mouth--if i want to disparage 3E, for whatever reason, i'll come right out and say it. I'm not shy about ripping on 3E--i've got a list of problems with it that's almost as long as teh rulebooks. However, in this thread, I said nothing of the sort.

I was simply observing that i've seen art that looked a lot like the D&D3E art when a roommate was playing Final Fantasy, or some other computer game. Prior to D&D3E, i'd never seen that style of art in a pre-industrial-setting RPG, novel, or other non-computer-game fantasy work. And it's certainly not the style of pre-3E D&D art. That's all i'm saying.
 
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A few thoughts.

First, about rec.games.frp.dnd. Quite honestly, the biggest problem that new visitors to the group has is that too often, they break one of the fundamental rules of not only Usenet but any online discussion group: lurk before posting. Get a sense of the general tone and focus of the population before contributing; it's only polite, I think, to see how things are done before making assumptions. Usenet groups don't really have the same resources as webfora like ENWorld - rec.games.frp.dnd has a FAQ, but it relies upon one guy to get it posted; there are no moderators (and personally, I'm thankful for it); there's no "framework" to the discussion which could contain advice on how to moderate your behaviour to the "community standard", like there is with any message board attached to a website.

It's obvious to anyone who's been there that the community standards of rec.games.frp.dnd are very different from those of ENWorld or most other popular D&D discussion groups. Without moderation, guys like Michael Scott Brown are free to abuse posters who display ignorance of the rules from the questions they ask; some people might consider it unhelpful, of course, but MSB has a particular notion of what's good teaching behaviour, and it has to be said that he's not often wrong about the rules. It's a rough environment, but I imagine that for completely new players it could be a bit like boot camp: rough, and not something everyone can tolerate, but a really efficient way to get rid of bad habits and train up (in this case) your thought processes and critical skills, as well as your knowledge of the rules.

It's certainly not friendly to Eric's grandmother, but frankly I prefer it that way. I'm pretty firm in my support of nigh-absolute free speech, though I suppose we have it a little easier in that most young kids don't know how to access Usenet, and would turn up their noses at the unattractive look of Google Groups compared to a site like this or even RPG.Net.

As for the denizens of the group being "rules Nazis", I really have no idea how that opinion could arise. More than half the on-topic threads are about changing the rules, by my estimate; by a stretch of the imagination, I can vaguely see how the constant admonitions to read and understand the rules from MSB and others might come off as strict by-the-bookism, but it's mostly born out of a concern for having a firm foundation in the rules as written before making drastic changes, and inducing a habit of drawing one's intepretations from the general structure of the game as a whole.

This brings me to the second topic I'd like to cover: why I prefer Third Edition to the earlier versions of the game. Basically, it boils down to this: creative inspiration - in the sense of flavour, fluff, setting, colour, whatever one wishes to call it - is something I don't need the rules of the game to try and describe or mandate for me. Frankly, most game designers are not ranked among the best writers in the world; Gygax's version of Tolkienesque fantasy isn't really much of a patch on Tolkien himself, and I don't even like Tolkien!

Now, the divide is narrower than I'm probably seeming to paint it, and I get a lot of good ideas from the setting material that Wizards of the Coast and other publishers (like Malhavoc or Green Ronin) put out, but as far as I'm concerned the core rules of a system should be as bare-bones as possible in terms of flavour, simply because anyone else's idea of what makes for a good fantasy setting is never going to be precisely the same as mine, and rules are not my forte. Thus, not only do I appreciate a good rule system much more than setting information, I want that system to be as divorced as possible from any setting, because stripping setting-dependence out of rule systems which don't divide the two is almost always a necessity.

It's not always necessary to be this hardline about it, of course. I really like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed, which Monte Cook designed specifically to have a greater relationship with its implied setting that core D&D! On the other hand, there's a line somewhere, and Third Edition D&D and Arcana Unearthed are on the "good" side of that line, while Second Edition AD&D is on the "bad" side of that line for me.

I think what it comes down to is pretty simple, at least for me: genre emulation should be light. I think the genre the core D&D rules give you in Third Edition is pretty light; it feels more like a toolkit presented in a continuous example of application than Second or First Edition did; the later just felt like "this is the game you will play".

For me, that's much worse than a lack of flavour in the ruleset.
 

2nd for the feel

Well ,i agree that 3rd edition is really easier to use and to play,and lacks the holes in the rules that 2nd had, but at least for me,the books of 2nd gave you at least a hint how to think and act as a character...You were a paladin-not "my charisma on saves"&"got smite and turn" ...it ment something to be that good holy guy...I'm just saying that many are lost in the rules and forget what is RPG about...FUN...Still,for those who haven't read anything in 2nd,and have spare time read "Combat and Tactics" or the character guidebooks,I believe it worths....


-Commoners are smart,if you know how to use them
-Paladin of Tyr!!!!!!!!!!
 

Actually, that reminds me of another thing I disliked about Second Edition (and specifically so; my experience with First is much more limited).

Many of the so-called "roleplaying tips" were pretty much nonsense. There didn't seem, to my mind back in 1990 or so, any genuinely consistent set of design principles behind things like the paladin's code vis-a-vis the rest of the alignment system, no clear and logical outline of what alignment means and certainly no consideration for a playable and sensible rationale for it; arbitrary, First Edition Gygaxian punishments for changing alignment (experience loss) coupled with a more progressive interpretation of alignment that suggested it wasn't a massive metaphysical part of one's PC the way it had been in the earlier days of alignment languages and other rubbish.

Third Edition completed the step away from the original Gygaxian "take" on alignment and enshrined within the rules the principle that alignment was a label applied to a character after consideration of her actions, not a prescription for character behaviour and certainly not a straightjacket within which she must remain or suffer dire game penalties. These days, a paladin's code matches up more or less to lawful good alignment because the alignment's principles are a convenient shorthand for describing a paladin's principles; a paladin's code demands she acts thus and therefore she is Lawful Good, so it's convenient to require her to maintain that alignment.

(Even so, the equivalency is not exact. The paladin's code is clearly more concerned with the principles of Good rather than Law; it's Evil acts which cause a paladin to immediately fall, and Chaotic acts are much less proscribed. There are, however, characters who could perfectly aptly be described as Lawful Good who would concern themselves more with lawfulness than goodness, and thus would make poor paladins. ;))

Most of the other things I can recall were equally silly. The druid class' crazy "to advance in level you must FIGHT!" flavour was completely over-the-top and inappropriate, as you can probably guess I think, in a ruleset aiming to be useful in more than one specific campaign setting (and Second Edition AD&D didn't even have the excuse of being explicitly set in "Greyhawk Lite"!).
 

francisca said:
Well, it certainly lends itself to that kind of play, but nobody has shown up at my table with a sawed-off double barrel and made me play it like a video game.

Does it lend itself to videogame style of play more than previous versions? yeah, a little, in the sense that power-ups are a bit more incremental.
I often hear this 'video-game style of play' mentioned quite frequently, always with a deragatory air. I often think that the people who try use this as a broad brush to paint what's wrong with 3e haven't actually played many video games, to make that statement.

Usually, this is a short-hand way of describing what is believed to be a mentality of playing the game purely as a meta-game, with death being considered an inconvienence ("I've got two lives left!"), the game being only viewed in meta terms ("there's got to be a save point around here somewhere...the boss is coming up!") and a strong implication that the player has both a short attention span and need for instant gratification. Are there games and gamers like that? There certainly are. Does that describe video-gaming any more than "Mazes and Monsters" describes role-players? No, it does not.

Let's look at games like, say, Silent Hill 2, about a man searching through a seemingly abandoned town filled with monsters from his subconscious, looking for clues about a note from his supposedly dead wife. It's slow, methodical, offers no stats to consider and is a psychological thriller with moments of genuine horror and intense drama. A game such as Pokemon Fire Red, on the other hand, requires a great deal of work to 'catch 'em all'. In fact, it's a point of pride to manage to cultivate, breed or capture certain pokemon, because it requires a significant investment of real time to do so. A game like Metal Gear Solid 2 or Thief is certainly more about subtlety and careful thinking than blasting away with reckless abandon. Knights of the Old Republic is certainly a game filled with choices that are on the same level, in some cases, as some pen-and-paper games I've played. This is not to say that there aren't many games out there that are purely about dealing out the hurt and moving on to the next battle, both RPG and otherwise. However, to paint with so broad a brush misses a great deal, I think. You might as well say that something has a board-game, parlor-game or carnival-game appeal, by the same token. The point being that the term video-game style of play would be like restaurant style of food. It can imply certain things, but isn't a terribly specific descriptor, IMHO.
 

mhacdebhandia said:
Now, the divide is narrower than I'm probably seeming to paint it, and I get a lot of good ideas from the setting material that Wizards of the Coast and other publishers (like Malhavoc or Green Ronin) put out, but as far as I'm concerned the core rules of a system should be as bare-bones as possible in terms of flavour, simply because anyone else's idea of what makes for a good fantasy setting is never going to be precisely the same as mine, and rules are not my forte. Thus, not only do I appreciate a good rule system much more than setting information, I want that system to be as divorced as possible from any setting, because stripping setting-dependence out of rule systems which don't divide the two is almost always a necessity.
Yeah, but that's just it; the D&D ruleset is not stripped down and setting neutral in the least. How many fantasy settings do you know that have anything like the cleric class in them? How many do you know that have all these spellcasting woodsmen? How many settings do you know in which there's this sharp divide between types of magic; arcane and divine? How many settings do you know that have spells at all like the D&D spell-list?

Chances are, all the settings you know that have those things are, guess what?, D&D settings.
mhacdebhandia said:
It's not always necessary to be this hardline about it, of course. I really like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed, which Monte Cook designed specifically to have a greater relationship with its implied setting that core D&D! On the other hand, there's a line somewhere, and Third Edition D&D and Arcana Unearthed are on the "good" side of that line, while Second Edition AD&D is on the "bad" side of that line for me.
Actually, that's not true; Monte said in the Design Diaries that he was recognizing how much setting information was imbedded in the rules, and was specifically trying to imbed different setting information in the rules. He wasn't trying to imbed more setting information. In other words, AU is nothing more nor less than D&D, but not D&D. D&D without the D&Disms, if you will. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, as an alternate PHB, is just as setting neutral as the actual PHB; it just so happens that there is only one setting available for it; the Diamond Throne. It'd be interesting to see, although I doubt there's a market for it, if someone else were to take that ruleset and publish another setting for it. It could certainly be done as easily as we can have Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and whatever other settings for the PHB assumptions.
 

Yeah, but that's just it; the D&D ruleset is not stripped down and setting neutral in the least. How many fantasy settings do you know that have anything like the cleric class in them? How many do you know that have all these spellcasting woodsmen? How many settings do you know in which there's this sharp divide between types of magic; arcane and divine? How many settings do you know that have spells at all like the D&D spell-list?

Chances are, all the settings you know that have those things are, guess what?, D&D settings.
You're right, but in my defence it was late and I was very tired and heat-stricken when I wrote that last night. ;)

What I intended to say was this: D&D is based on a coherent ruleset, and its components are modular. If you want to adjust the rules of the game, they're already split into parts you can tinker with.

Class features, for example, are presented in discrete units. It's not perfect; the rogue still has a Second Edition-style list of the weapons they're proficient with rather than a listing of the defined proficiency groups that nearly all the other classes have. Take the variant classes in Unearthed Arcana as an example; they're all phrased in terms of trading X for Y, in discrete and logical units. Medium and heavy armour proficiency for skill points, animal companions for rage, whatever.

The way the game is laid out lends itself much more easily to customisation than earlier editions; thus, while the setting implied by the existence of by-the-book clerics is definitely present, it's much easier to change that setting by changing the cleric class than it was even with "specialty priests" in Second Edition.

Actually, that's not true; Monte said in the Design Diaries that he was recognizing how much setting information was imbedded in the rules, and was specifically trying to imbed different setting information in the rules. He wasn't trying to imbed more setting information. In other words, AU is nothing more nor less than D&D, but not D&D. D&D without the D&Disms, if you will. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, as an alternate PHB, is just as setting neutral as the actual PHB; it just so happens that there is only one setting available for it; the Diamond Throne. It'd be interesting to see, although I doubt there's a market for it, if someone else were to take that ruleset and publish another setting for it. It could certainly be done as easily as we can have Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and whatever other settings for the PHB assumptions.
That's been done, actually. When my cable internet is working and I'm not stuck on dial-up, I frequent Monte's fora; there's a guy there, Ashanderai, who's created an "Oriental AU" setting called the Lands of the Jade Oath. I understand it's being published in some form . . .
 


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