D&D 3E/3.5 J Tweets 3ed BANE

[TerraDave]

Since you've apparently seen and remember the hundreds of episodes

You do hyperbole.

The original series had 80 episodes. I am afraid to know the high fraction of the posters here that have seen them all.

As for the other series:

"the safest way to travel", according to dialogue in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Realm of Fear".

The things you can learn from wikipedia.

The only mortal failure I know of was that seen in the first movie. I think it was put in so they could show them docking and undocking and flying around in shuttle craft. Which they did not want to do on the first series. So it pretty much always worked, except the few times some writer wanted it no to.

 

[gizmo33]

You do hyperbole.

The original series had 80 episodes. I am afraid to know the high fraction of the posters here that have seen them all.

I was quoting someone else saying that there were hundreds! I have no idea how many there were and it wasn't germane to the point I was trying to make. Wouldn't you prefer that I spent my effort on trying to understand your point rather than picking out your spelling mistakes?

The things you can learn from wikipedia.

What you can't learn from wikipedia, apparently, is context or how to reason with the information. No one here is discussing AFAICT the issues involved in teleporting into a fortified location during war-time conditions. That would actually be germane to the actually point of what I'm talking about which is the "teleport-murder" issue brought up. What technologies prevent teleporting? Which conditions and technologies will complicate it? How dangerous is it really? Those are the relevant points.

So it pretty much always worked, except the few times some writer wanted it no to.

Since the events of the Star Trek world take place exclusively within the imagination of the writers I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make here. The fact is, that a quote about the transporter being the safest mode of transportation doesn't really say much. It's not hard to find a mode of transportation that's safer than an automobile, for instance.

Perhaps the quote was an homage to the modern issues regarding air-travel. People are much more scared of air travel than the statistics on deaths would suggest that they be. Then again, that's relevant to the point because air travel is not without it's problems. And on top of that, commercial airliners are not the recommended way of assassinating rival world leaders (fly in on a jumbo jet, get out, and shoot him with a crossbow).

That's about it. I look forward to the coming responses with dread.

 

[Toryx]

2) A loud and obvious manifestation at the other end comparable to a jet plane landing across the street, granting something like +300 to a Listen check to notice it.

Now that's an idea I like. I'll have to keep that in mind for future campaigns.

I'm inclined to agree with Tweet, personally. I don't like playing high level casters for all the bloody resource management. Every time our party rests, it seems like the next 30 to 45 minutes of game time has to be spent on spell prep while the fighter and rogue sits around twiddling their thumbs. And then there's the problem as DM of prepping for a fight involving high level casters. That's a nightmare and a half.

And what's the deal with this Star Trek argument, anyway? Who cares? It was a loose analogy to make a point. There's no point in nitpicking the poor guy's accuracy. All he's saying is that he thinks Teleport should be less reliable. If you need to argue, argue about that. Sheesh.

 

[Cadfan]

gizmo33- Shush. Your lack of perfect knowledge of Star Trek makes you unfit to comment on D&D.

*ties noose*

 

[gizmo33]

gizmo33- Shush. Your lack of perfect knowledge of Star Trek makes you unfit to comment on D&D.

*ties noose*

Will no one give Quasimodo a drink of water!?

 

[Drammattex]

A big part of the problem with Scry is due to players using it as step 1 of the "Scry, Buff, Teleport, Murder" combo. Being able to use it to discover key plot points requires using it at exactly the right moments.

This is exactly the combo I'm referring to.

The problem with high level play is that the rules aren't really designed for it in ways that I think have been so far unexplored. I don't see any reason why teleport shouldn't be at least as risky as a transporter in Star Trek. That thing is killing people every other episode. You don't even have to change anything about the existing teleport spell to make it more dangerous.

In my campaign, the Scry, Buff, Teleport, Murder sequence might very well be a
Scry and see the false image, buff, teleport into the Glyph of Nuclear Winter, walk into a Dispelling Screen and lose your buffs, and get Murdered by a teleport filter that shreds you as you teleport out of the dungeon. Sure, that's a defensive shield that kobolds probably don't have - in which case PCs can probably teleport-kill them. I'm not worried about that.

From what I've seen online it just doesn't seem like many DMs really change their designs to accomodate high level adventuring. If all you do when you design a castle is put up 4 towers and some walls, you're not accomodating high level adventuring. Hopefully that's something the new DM's Guide will address, but I won't hold my breath.

The thing is, the party using this combo is 10th level (two teleports) or even 9th level if you're using spell points. Is 9th and 10th level "high level play?" I'm not criticizing, I'm asking.

I agree that there are simple ways to foil players who use teleport liberally. My problem is that if all wizards are capable of this, then EVERYONE needs the kind of anti-teleport protection you suggested (that is, everyone who can afford the resources/personnel to create it). This is a lot of work for DMs looking to accomodate a 9th or 10th level party. It also means that you have about four or five levels where you can throw some really good adventures at the PCs. Before that, you're in the low level crawl. After that, you're working to accomodate that specific spell combo amongst other things, in every adventure you design for your PCs.

Anyhow, I just opened a Desert of Desolation booster today. I got an Osyluth. On the DDM (epic) side, I notice that it has Teleport, which allows it to move six squares as a Swift action. This is different from how Teleport has worked in DDM before; since this set is a "preview" of 4e, I'm thinking there might be a hint there.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Personally I like the teleport spell. One quick way of changing its use for SBT and avoiding overland travel etc is quite simple - make it personal only. It is still useful and stylish, but can't become a 'party avoids the dungeon' or a 'party teleports away to recover' trick, which is what most of the complaints I see about it relate to.

Cheers

Same here. The problem is mostly:

The interaction with Scry and Buff to give you a terribly fast and sudden attack with your full strength

If you remake the teleport spell, that you don't "just appear", but appear in rolling thunder and cackling lightning, taking several rounds (as well to cast it, perhaps 10 minutes?)... then the combo is dead, because you're running into a bunch of readied actions (and scry only observes a small area around the target... so the "sneak" function is pretty much useless).

If it's *really* a problem, add that the teleport wurbles and gwarbles you through the planes, and hence you get hit with a dispel magic, so you cannot remain fully buffed as well. But that shouldn't be necessary.

But making it strictly personal... sheesh, that's a bit too much, I think.

Cheers, LT.

 

[gizmo33]

The thing is, the party using this combo is 10th level (two teleports) or even 9th level if you're using spell points. Is 9th and 10th level "high level play?" I'm not criticizing, I'm asking.

I didn't take it as criticizing, I think that's a good question because we might have different answers that have a bearing on the issue. For my campaign, the answer is yes, 10th level is high level. But I think more significantly in my campaign are the myriads of ways that teleport can be thwarted. Now such wards are not all that common, nor are they trivially easy to use (you usually have to guess the time/place), but the uncertainty is the issue. You'd be surprised what an effect some NPCs spreading tall-tales about the hazards of teleport will have on a player's imagination.

Just by changing nothing else, and having an NPC say "Hey, did you hear that story about the wizard who teleported into the Cursed Tower? An enchantment on the tower re-routed him straight to the 8000th layer of the Abyss, and he was covered in two miles of larva." Of course if you're a soft-hearted DM then your players will probably just laugh. But my players would probably cringe that such a story reminded them of a previous PC's death.

It's simple in the case of low-level spells. Invisibility has plenty of counters - both magical and mundane. I don't know why teleport hasn't gotten similar treatment. Why aren't there castle materials that block transportation? A lead-shielded room or perhaps some "under-stone" with teleport limiting abilities similar to the Underdark of the GDQ series. Such things exist IMC of course, but if they were universal to the game then I think some of people's problems could be mitigated.

Having someone scry a false image and teleport into a murderous ward or forlorn prison could replace scry-teleport as the assassination method of choice.

 

[Shieldhaven]

Specifically, the D&D designers haven't gone quite that far down the road of materials and conditions that block teleportation because it's not cool to take away abilities that PCs have earned over the course of many levels. A player who rolls up a wizard is, more likely than not, already aware of what his character will be able to do at high level. That's part of the appeal of the class. If, once he gets to that high level, he's told that teleport isn't actually useful when he needs it to be, he wonders why he bothered with this class. Though I'm not inclined to dig it up at the moment, Monte Cook wrote a brilliant article on this topic in the early years of 3.0.

The answer, then, is to design the class along different lines in the first place, and to design the teleport spell so that it is less open to abuse. Ideally this design will take place at the start of a new edition, rather than in its midst (when complaints of nerfing go from grumbling to a deafening uproar).

Haven

 

[Pale]

Why not simply make those spells unavailable?