Jack Vance, Dying Earth, and the Primer of Practical Magic

[Drifter Bob]

Primer mini- EN review

(snip)
All in all it was a great book to steal ideas from. It wasn't perfect but was definitely worth buying (BTW the lack of editing errors was a pleasant surprise as well!!).

Whenever I get settled in & I'll take a longer look at it & give you my impressions.

Hey thanks a lot Krieg! I really appreciate your taking the time to have a look over of the book and post your initial reaction here. I know what a drag moving is, they say it's one of the 3 most stressfull things in life, next to a close relative dying. I hate it! I'm glad I haven't had to in 5 years (knock on wood)

Keep in mind I'll be available on this here list to answer any specific questions you might have on any particular balance issues or anything else you might want to know about the Primer or the Dying Earth world, and we'll soon be posting a web page to support it with eratta and some extra information (like on the Sandestins) on the Dying Earth Role Playing Game wesbsite, hopefully within the week.

Anything you have a question about I'll will be glad to put up there, plus we'll be making a few extra goodies available as well.

Jr

 

[redkobold]

I got my copy yesterday and skimmed through it.

I like it a lot and for me it gets high marks.

Off of the top of my head, here are my thoughts:

First the cons:

I did not care for the cover and the title together. It looks like something from an occult shop. I would have rather had a painted cover like other DERPG products.

The graphic design and layout left a bit to be desired. Primarily I am talking about the text boxes like page 30 and 51.

For the price, I was a little surprised that it was not bigger or hard bound. No biggie however because the content is great.


Now the pros:
The artwork was good. I especially liked Ralph Horsley's illustrations. I also like the ink line "comic book" type illustrations but felt they did not go as well with the grayscale illustrations. That is a minor thing however.

Who did the illustrations on 119 and 124. Those are my favorite.

The spells and magic items are great! Some may be a bit overpowered but that is fine. I will be digging into these more deeply soon. They have inspired me to have a more magic infused campaign.

A question on one spell: Call to the Ominous Enthusiast. Duration is 1 minute per level. That seems like an extremely short time to have the demon do anything productive. Should that perhaps be an hour?

I really liked the spell failure. I wish however that Appendix V (d20 spell equivalents) would have been included with the spell descriptions and/or given the description for the Dismal Failures and Illustrious Success.
That would be a great web enhancement. Hint Hint!

I like the vat creature concept. A review said that the mechanics do not work well but that can be tweaked. A good basis is provided to develop.

I agree with Krieg about more info on Sandestins. Some adventure hooks and ideas on where to find them, trap them, etc. Web Enhancement also?

As a final recap:
Artwork 8 to 10
Layout 8
Content 10
Originality 10
Inspirational 10
Size to Cost Value 7

One question, what is a tyro? Novice, initiate? Is that a made up Vancian word?

I also had a thought if someone wanted to have a Vancian flavored game. Some expressed doubt that players would use the more fanciful spell names. Use the spell check and give the player a -2 if he uses the common name, even if accidentally like "I cast my web, er uh, Grannagin's Sticky Entanglement". Hit em with the -2 or if you prefer the carrot to the stick approach perhaps give them a +2 if they use the proper name. Players will learn quickly because they love any advantage they can get.

 

[mmadsen]

One question, what is a tyro? Novice, initiate? Is that a made up Vancian word?

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: ty·ro
Pronunciation: 'tI-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural tyros
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Medieval Latin, from Latin tiro young soldier, tyro
: a beginner in learning : NOVICE
synonym see AMATEUR

 

[Drifter Bob]

I did not care for the cover and the title together. It looks like something from an occult shop. I would have rather had a painted cover like other DERPG products.

I didn't like the title much at first either, I was hoping for something really cool like the cover for Cugel's Compendium. My girlfriend liked it though and over time it kind of grew on me. I know what you mean about the occult shop look though, that threw me off a little at first too.

Who did the illustrations on 119 and 124. Those are my favorite.

I don't know but I'll ask Simon at Pelgrane and get back to you

A question on one spell: Call to the Ominous Enthusiast. Duration is 1 minute per level. That seems like an extremely short time to have the demon do anything productive. Should that perhaps be an hour?

Maybe you are right. I would say, it would depend on the nature of the task, how specialised it was, up to the DM's discretion. To remove a trap on a chest, one minute per level. To carve a statue or bake a perfect souflee, one hour per level. To build a brick wall or a small bridge, one day per level. I'll add this to the errata doc we're doing.

I really liked the spell failure. I wish however that Appendix V (d20 spell equivalents) would have been included with the spell descriptions and/or given the description for the Dismal Failures and Illustrious Success.
That would be a great web enhancement. Hint Hint!

We'll put it in there. If Anybody has any specific suggestions for dismal failures or illustrious successes, I'd be glad to take them under consideration and list the name of whoever came up with the idea if we use them...

I like the vat creature concept. A review said that the mechanics do not work well but that can be tweaked. A good basis is provided to develop.

I agree with Krieg about more info on Sandestins. Some adventure hooks and ideas on where to find them, trap them, etc. Web Enhancement also?

Those issues are addressed in the eratta which should be out this weekend.

As a final recap:
Artwork 8 to 10
Layout 8
Content 10
Originality 10
Inspirational 10
Size to Cost Value 7

Thanks a lot lyonstudio. If you are ever in my neigborhood (mid- city) drop me a line and we can get together for a beer or something and I'll sign your book for you. I only wish your review was on RPG.net with those others!

I'll take all your advice and try to address everything in the errata doc. It's so nice to hear some positive feedback! I've mostly been getting assaulted in the none too friendly environs of usenet...

DB

 

[redkobold]

I'll take all your advice and try to address everything in the errata doc. It's so nice to hear some positive feedback! I've mostly been getting assaulted in the none too friendly environs of usenet...

DB

Gamers, especially those online do tend to get snippy. I guess those who take the time to write a review online have strong opinions. I really liked the new Gamma World by Bruce Baugh but obviously many folks (or perhaps a vocal minority) ripped it to shreds. I know (from his online comments) that it bugged Bruce. I guess you need a thick skin. I have written a few articles and a lot of time and love goes into the work. It is rough to have someone thrash it. I tend to look at products with an eye for good stuff I will use rather than focusing solely on the parts I dislike. If it has good illustrations to inspire me and a majority of good thoughful and useful content I am happy.

If I only focused on things I dislike, I could thrash the core D&D products easily for things like how heavy armor makes you harder to hit, how the monster manual gives next to no flavor for creatures other than their combat tactics, and so forth.

I would like to get together some time. I am helping out with a local miniature wargaming con in June (website, t-shirt design, and sculpting a commemorative miniature). Come check it out. Here is the site:

www.BayouWars.org

 

[redkobold]

I also had a thought if someone wanted to have a Vancian flavored game. Some expressed doubt that players would use the more fanciful spell names. Use the spell check and give the player a -2 if he uses the common name, even if accidentally like "I cast my web, er uh, Grannagin's Sticky Entanglement". Hit em with the -2 or if you prefer the carrot to the stick approach perhaps give them a +2 if they use the proper name. Players will learn quickly because they love any advantage they can get.

Sorry for quoting myself, maybe we can start a new topic.

Along the lines of having a high magic Vancian type game...

All characters can learn and cast cantrips. They can know an amount equal to their level + Int modifier. They can cast a number of cantrips daily equal to 1/2 their level + int modifier.

The Use Magic Device is not a "trained only" skill.

Anyone else have some good ideas for rules for a Vance flavored campaign?


Also, it would be fun to go through the whole SRD spell list for Wizards and come up with more flavorful names. How about it?

 

[mmadsen]

All characters can learn and cast cantrips. They can know an amount equal to their level + Int modifier. They can cast a number of cantrips daily equal to 1/2 their level + int modifier.

Or allow a non-spellcaster to cast (as a 0-level spellcaster) from a spellbook as if it were a scroll.

The Use Magic Device is not a "trained only" skill.

Naturally.

Also, it would be fun to go through the whole SRD spell list for Wizards and come up with more flavorful names. How about it?

Good idea -- although that might be good enough for its own thread.

 

[Drifter Bob]

We are going to have a contest along these lines. People can submit Dying Earth names for D20 spells and their ideas for Dismal Failure and Illustrious Success results. The winners will recieve outstanding prizes!

The Codicilliary (web enhancement) documents are now all but complete. There are several new magic items, greatly expanded sections on Vat creatures and Sandestins, and a complete 21 page mini-adventure for low level characters.

If this is all well recieved, more might be on the way....

I'll be posting links to the web enhancement or PDF (I'm not sure which it's going to be at this point) as soon as they are up, possibly as soon as this weekend.

DB

 

[Maelstrom]

I reviewed the Primer of Practical Magic at Gaming Report and at RPGnet.

I couldn't find my 1st ed AD&D Player's Handbook but I did find the Greyhawk Adventures from 1988. It has a listing of named spells by that campaign's famous magicians and quite a few have floral Dying Earth style titles like Bigby's Dextrous Digits, Drawmij's Marvelous Shield, Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Shield Maidens, Nystul's Enveloping Darkness, Otiluke's Orb of Containment, Rary's Apptitude Appropriator and Tenser's Fortunes of War.

Some ideas:
Alocrel's Comprehensive Understanding of Linguistics = Comprehend Languages
The Holdfast Guardian = Arcane Lock
Hyapatia's Hypnotic Dance = Hypnotic Pattern
Haadral's Runic Ward of Searing = Explosive runes
Fell Servitor of the First Calling = Summon Monster I (2d Calling = II and so on)
The Berzerk Madness of the Bear = Rage
Phandaal's Scenic Phantasm = Hallucinatory Terrain
Phandaal's Phantasmal Force (ok, I just had to get it out of my system!)
The Crimson Bands of Cytorrak = Hold person (ok, I stole that from Marvel)
The Obfuscatory Mists of Xagyg the Mad = Mind Fog (I am having way too much fun reminiscing here)

If I find a thesaurus you guys are in trouble!

I almost forgot! Otto's Gong of Isolation from the Greyhawk Adventures book.

 

[RangerWickett]

*makes mental note to read this entire thread and see how Elements of Magic could help*

*grin* I've always been a fan of Talislanta, which had Jack Vance-esque magic. Heck, the Tal magic system helped inspire EOM-Revised. Hmmm.