James Wyatt + FR!?

[JamesM]

Here's a totally idle speculation to consider:

1. Remember the WotC setting search? The one that gave us Eberron? Why did WotC do that? At the time, I felt WotC was looking, for various reasons, to retire the Realms and replace it with a setting that was new and thus free from years of accumulated lore and that better and more easily served as a vehicle for introducing whatever new changes they made to the rules in upcoming years.

2. Despite its doing well, I don't think Eberron has come close to enjoying the same level of success as the Realms in terms of sales.

Assuming these both are true, where does that leave WotC? They recognize that the Realms is their heavy hitter setting-wise. It has a large, loyal fanbase who's shown a willingness to put up with lots of arbitrary changes and ill-considered alterations over the years. But the design of 4E is significantly different, both rules-wise and flavor-wise, from that of the Realms, at least in its broadest, most "vanilla" form. What do they do?

They could have created a wholly new setting but that'd leave them with the Eberron "problem," which is to say a game setting without the large, supportive fanbase (never mind string of best selling novels). And, let's be honest, it'd be a lot of work to create a new setting from scratch. My guess is that they figured it'd be easier to mold the Realms into something more amenable to their business plans for 4E than any other option. They're also probably gambling that, like 4E itself, the furor and bile will eventually die down between now and August and enough people will just roll with the punches and accept the changes, as they did in the past. Basically, they're wagering that Realms fans are loyal enough to the Realms as a brand that they'll stick with it no matter what.

It's the same wager they're making with D&D as a brand and I think it's a good wager. I'd probably take it too -- but it's still a wager. There's a chance, and not an insignificant one, that they'll lose that wager. I think it less likely they will for 4E, but it seems much more likely for the Realms.

Time will tell.

 

[Brian Compton]

Here's a totally idle speculation to consider:

1. Remember the WotC setting search? The one that gave us Eberron? Why did WotC do that? At the time, I felt WotC was looking, for various reasons, to retire the Realms and replace it with a setting that was new and thus free from years of accumulated lore and that better and more easily served as a vehicle for introducing whatever new changes they made to the rules in upcoming years.

2. Despite its doing well, I don't think Eberron has come close to enjoying the same level of success as the Realms in terms of sales.

I don't know that they wanted to retire the Realms- Eberron has a lot of things (like the quasi-steampunk elements) that are fringe in the Realms. I would guess they wanted a setting to go along with the Realms that had a very different feel. Eberron= modern fiction genres (pulp adventure, noir, etc.) in a fantasy setting; Realms= traditional high fantasy a la Tolkien, Le Guin, Brooks, et al.

In terms of popularity, you again have to look at what you're measuring. I would venture they are equally popular as game settings. I don't have numbers, but I would guess they sell similar quantities of game supplements, based on how many of each get made every year.

But, as I've said before, FR is popular beyond the gaming set, in a way that Eberron likely will not be based on the team's marketing philosophy. One of my students, who I'm pretty sure has never played D&D in his life, came in today with a copy of Devil's Due's comics adaptation of Homeland, and has already read the text versions of most of R.A.'s books. They tried doing the same thing with Eberron, and it didn't last very long. I will stipulate it may not be a fair comparison- I'm sure many of the sales of the Drizzt and Dragonlance comics are to those who've read the original novels, while the Eberron book had no prior release as a novel- but it is a piece of evidence as to the greater popularity of the stories of FR as opposed to the game of FR (Devil's Due wouldn't keep doing trilogy adaptations if they didn't think they'd sell).

Assuming these both are true, where does that leave WotC? They recognize that the Realms is their heavy hitter setting-wise. It has a large, loyal fanbase who's shown a willingness to put up with lots of arbitrary changes and ill-considered alterations over the years. But the design of 4E is significantly different, both rules-wise and flavor-wise, from that of the Realms, at least in its broadest, most "vanilla" form. What do they do?

They could have created a wholly new setting but that'd leave them with the Eberron "problem," which is to say a game setting without the large, supportive fanbase (never mind string of best selling novels). And, let's be honest, it'd be a lot of work to create a new setting from scratch. My guess is that they figured it'd be easier to mold the Realms into something more amenable to their business plans for 4E than any other option. They're also probably gambling that, like 4E itself, the furor and bile will eventually die down between now and August and enough people will just roll with the punches and accept the changes, as they did in the past. Basically, they're wagering that Realms fans are loyal enough to the Realms as a brand that they'll stick with it no matter what.

I don't know. Again, this assumes that the popularity of the game and the popularity of the novels are one and the same. If FR stopped being a campaign setting, WotC could pump out FR novels, and I would bet it would still be popular as a fictional world and story setting. There'd also be nothing stopping current players from using their 3E fluff and just putting the 4E rules on it (which is as it should have been, but I digress). Making a new setting would be difficult, but they do still have all those submissions from before that are still their intellectual property(unless it reverted back to the losers, but I highly doubt WotC would give up potential material to mine for stuff in the future). Just contact the designer and get cranking. I don't remember their being a big lag between when Eberron was announced as the winning setting and when the Campaign Setting book came out; most of the others were likely in similar stages of completion in case they were chosen.

I don't think WotC fears the reception of a new setting- again, I think Eberron's ongoing success shows otherwise- as they do the generation of ill will that dumping FR would cause. It would be especially true if there was no game, but they still wanted to write the novels. Then they'd be showing their hand- FR is primarily for the novels, and the game setting is just along for the ride. Look at Dragonlance; there was no support of the game for years, yet the novels kept humming along. I wonder how many Dragonlance fans TSR and WotC lost when there was no game. Certainly not enough that they thought the novels would be unprofitable.

If it weren't for the novels' profits, this wouldn't be happening. People would buy the game material without needing massive events to make them happy. But, as Marvel and DC prove every year or so, Armageddon is good for business. Don't believe me? Then ask this- how can Eberron's design team just up and decide not to jump ahead two years while FR's team can't? Because the FR changes are being brought to us primarily through novels which are written or being written right now (by freelance authors who don't work directly for WotC), while Eberron's changes would have all happend in the CS (which WotC staff are writing and can therefore control directly).

 

[JamesM]

If FR stopped being a campaign setting, WotC could pump out FR novels, and I would bet it would still be popular as a fictional world and story setting.

I don't believe they can from a legal standpoint. I may be completely mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (Candlekeep perhaps?) that the terms of WotC's (and TSR before it) agreement with Ed Greenwood requires the publication of a certain amount of specifically gaming material each year for the setting. Otherwise, yes, you're right, they could do that and, honestly, it might make more sense.

BTW, how is it that the Eberron team can just dump two years of material when the fans say so, but FR can't give even a little? Oh, wait, that's right- the novels (aimed as much at non-gamers as gamers) are already written or are being written. Eberron doesn't have that problem. Better for them.

Didn't James Wyatt say that they could do this with Eberron because there hadn't been extensive work done on the 4E Eberron campaign book, whereas that was not true of the Realms?

 

[Brian Compton]

I don't believe they can from a legal standpoint. I may be completely mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (Candlekeep perhaps?) that the terms of WotC's (and TSR before it) agreement with Ed Greenwood requires the publication of a certain amount of specifically gaming material each year for the setting. Otherwise, yes, you're right, they could do that and, honestly, it might make more sense.

I'd imagine such is the case. And so if they didn't print game material, all rights would revert back to Ed? And this would be bad because...

Didn't James Wyatt say that they could do this with Eberron because there hadn't been extensive work done on the 4E Eberron campaign book, whereas that was not true of the Realms?

If you look at the comments on FR's development of plot and direction, some of the first people they talked to were the novelists. My guess is that much of this, such as with Salvatore's The Orc King, is going to be rolled out in the novels prior to the release of the CS, so that the CS will just confirm what the novels have already made apparent. Eberron doesn't let novels influence its setting, so no such problems.

 

[JamesM]

I'd imagine such is the case. And so if they didn't print game material, all rights would revert back to Ed? And this would be bad because...

I'd be very pleased if FR reverted back to Ed, but it won't happen so long as a little more blood can be squeezed out of the stone. The new Realms will have to tank hard -- hard enough to affect the sales of novels -- before WotC would even consider letting it die.

If you look at the comments on FR's development of plot and direction, some of the first people they talked to were the novelists. My guess is that much of this, such as with Salvatore's The Orc King, is going to be rolled out in the novels prior to the release of the CS, so that the CS will just confirm what the novels have already made apparent. Eberron doesn't let novels influence its setting, so no such problems.

True enough. Again, I think it's indicative of what role the Realms really plays in WotC's plans. It's a setting for novels primarily; the gaming stuff is mostly secondary and exists to enable to the publication of the novels. A pity but that's the way it is.

 

[wayne62682]

I'm torn between this.. I liked FR, but i think a shakeup is a good thing, and a lot of the naysayers are doing it because it means they'll have to "upgrade" to use a 4E FR in their campaigns. A friend of mine is continually griping about this, about how they're going to "SAGA" FR (in reference to what TSR did to Dragonlance); he claims to be a Hasbro stockholder, and is constantly doom-saying how WotC is losing money, doing very poorly in sales, and is on the brink of going out of business because Hasbro is looking to sell them off, and how 4E is going to be the death-knell of D&D due to it, and how third-party publishers are planning to blackball 4E because it's going "in the wrong direction". I think he's just over-reacting.

In fact, I think we're all overreacting. FR has always been more about the novels than the game books. I think a shakeup could set things right for a change.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

True enough. Again, I think it's indicative of what role the Realms really plays in WotC's plans. It's a setting for novels primarily; the gaming stuff is mostly secondary and exists to enable to the publication of the novels. A pity but that's the way it is.

Yeah, except I believe that's what this new revival is for. To replenish the Realms as a GAMING world again. They seem to have tied it heavily to their new philosophy for 4th Edition. They are putting the Realms front and center in the new edition.

This is shown by the fact that they are releasing the FRCS immediately after the 3 core books, they are making Organized Play one of their 4 major parts of 4th Edition, creating Living Forgotten Realms and allowing play of it immediately after 4th Edition comes out.

The changes to the Realms appear to be....for lack of a better word, Eberronising it. In that, Eberron was the first campaign world designed from the ground up as "What would a world be like if the rules in 3rd edition were true?" I think that Forgotten Realms is being turned into the answer to the question "What would a world be like if the rules in 4th Edition were true?"

However, they want to leverage the name Forgotten Realms rather than come up with a new world, so they just changed the Realms to fit it.

 

[Guild Goodknife]

I'm very excited for the 4th Ed. FRCS. That excitement stems from the facts that
A) I realy like the realms (especially the places and the gods). I have played and DMed most of my D&D adventures in the FR, ranging from the old grey box to the 3rd Ed.FRCS.
B) I like to have new content for my bucks. I realy don't feel like buying the exactly same thing over and over again.
C) I like the idea of a RSE actually changing the Realms! The Times of Trouble where a cool story hook, but the changes where only minor, as some of you pointed out earlier.
D) I firmly believe that the Realms won't change into Midnight or Darksun or whatever some of the "doom & gloom - oh my gawd the sky has fallen" types here would like to believe. Why? Because the designers said so!!! And i like to believe the actual designers of a product over the nonesense of some bitter irritated hardcore fans.

So, yeah, i'm excited and i'm just as much of a FR fan as most of you. Go figure.
Oh, i also believe that judgement is better reserved for actual products but i now that's a crazy notion for some.

 

[JamesM]

Yeah, except I believe that's what this new revival is for. To replenish the Realms as a GAMING world again. They seem to have tied it heavily to their new philosophy for 4th Edition. They are putting the Realms front and center in the new edition.

This is shown by the fact that they are releasing the FRCS immediately after the 3 core books, they are making Organized Play one of their 4 major parts of 4th Edition, creating Living Forgotten Realms and allowing play of it immediately after 4th Edition comes out.

This is a fair point and I think you're on the right track. I don't think it's an either/or proposition, of course. What I suspect is that WotC is trying to create a more reliable bloc of D&D fans who buy into multiple aspects of the brand and the changes to the Realms are part of that.

The changes to the Realms appear to be....for lack of a better word, Eberronising it. In that, Eberron was the first campaign world designed from the ground up as "What would a world be like if the rules in 3rd edition were true?" I think that Forgotten Realms is being turned into the answer to the question "What would a world be like if the rules in 4th Edition were true?"

I think this is dead-on. In fact, I've been thinking that many of the things we saw in Eberron were in fact dry-runs for concepts we'll see in 4E. Seeing as I didn't much like Eberron ...

However, they want to leverage the name Forgotten Realms rather than come up with a new world, so they just changed the Realms to fit it.

Bingo.

 

[JamesM]

Oh, i also believe that judgement is better reserved for actual products but i now that's a crazy notion for some.

By that logic, we should all -- pro and contra -- say nothing until next August. Based on what we know now and what we can reasonably intuit, I think the skeptics among us have been remarkably restrained and level-headed in this thread.