James Wyatt + FR!?

And with another designer pipping up, I can't help but feel we're seeing Dragonlance the Second Generation or Greyhawk Wars all over again. Even if moderately successful, it's going to split the FR fanbase. It's main hope is going to have to be drawing in enough new players to overcome the issues that GH and DL have.
 

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JoeGKushner said:
Even if moderately successful, it's going to split the FR fanbase.

Every edition does this, and it still continues to be successful. Granted, this RSE is a bit bigger than the Time of Troubles or the retcon + small events (the Thunder Children, return of Shade, ec) of 3e.

I also believe it's a big part of why the Living Realms campaign is starting, so that by kinda breaking things down, it will be easier for the RPGA to use the entire Faerun setting as a shared world project.
 

Badkarmaboy said:
FR folks, here you go:

As I said yesterday, I was very pleased to be the one who got to make the announcement about our change in plans for Eberron. I'm disappointed, though, that it has resulted in my being lauded as a hero while Rich Baker is being raked over the coals on the FR boards and mailing lists.

Rich spends more time on FR stuff than I do, and I spend more time on Eberron stuff than he does. But he and I are part of the same team, and we're on the same page with the decisions that are being made.

To start with, his post about demons and devils: That’s not entirely his doing. The idea of distinguishing demons from devils is something that goes back to the very first stages of Fourth Edition design. Rich is part of the story team I lead, and I was a part of, and supportive of, every decision about demons and devils he made.

Similarly, he's not the sole architect of the changes to the Forgotten Realms. Over two years ago, Rich, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans from our book department sat down together and hashed out the plan that’s beginning now to bear fruit. At GenCon 2005, the authors who are writing the novels that describe these changes (including Ed Greenwood) came to a top-secret meeting to discuss them. And in the end, it was a plan that was formulated and executed by our whole department, all the way up to Bill Slavicsek, and in consultation with the D&D Brand team.

The fact (unfortunate though it may be) is that Eberron and the Forgotten Realms are two different beasts.

Eberron is still a relatively new setting, and from the start it has taken a very PC-centered approach to events in the world. There aren’t a ton of high-level NPCs running around, doing the things that PCs should be doing. There haven't been world-shattering events that altered the world and demanded timeline advancement. Its novel line has told stories within the context of the setting without dramatically altering the setting. And its lore consists of a campaign setting book and maybe a dozen sourcebooks.

The Forgotten Realms is steeped in tradition. The setting is nearly as old as D&D is, and its lore consists of thousands of pages of printed material. We recently had the great pleasure of publishing a Grand History of the Realms that was compiled by a devoted fan, turning his hard work into a beautiful product that serves as an excellent compendium of much of that lore. That history includes the Time of Troubles, which served to explain the transition from First Edition AD&D rules to Second Edition. Realms-shaking events have been a staple of the FR novel line, and we've worked hard in the past to make sure that events in novels and events in game product stay in sync with each other. (Judging by the fact that I still hear stories about City of the Spider Queen every time I go to GenCon, I have to figure that a lot of those efforts have been very successful.)

In the Forgotten Realms, we have to account for the fact that fans will get up in arms when the game changes how infravision (now darkvision) works, because it makes certain passages in the first Drizzt novels nonsensical. We have to consider how our changes to the cosmology will affect the story told in the War of the Spider Queen books.

And I'm not saying that’s a bad thing. We love FR—really, we do. And we're making the changes we're making because we love it.

FR fans, we do hear you, too.

Just last week, my team (me, Rich, Bruce, Chris Sims, and Chris Perkins, who's my boss) had a long conversation about the changes we're making to the Forgotten Realms. We asked ourselves some hard questions about the direction we're taking, based on the questions you folks are raising. We discussed the directions that Rich and Bruce are exploring in the novels they're writing now, and talked about making sure that the new FR still feels like the FR we all know and love.

So we're not ignoring you. We just have to respond to you in a different way than we responded to the Eberron fans.

Partly that's because, quite frankly, we haven't started work on the new Eberron campaign setting. We've had meetings with Keith to talk about new directions, and he and I have both explored some new directions in our novels, but Eberron has a fundamentally different approach to its novel lines. He and I can tell our stories and let you tell your stories, and nobody has to worry about whether they're the same stories. We can change our tentative plans for the new Eberron book a lot more easily than we can change our FR plans.

For the Forgotten Realms, the decision has been made. It wasn't made in a vacuum, it wasn't made without any input from outside these walls, and it wasn't made lightly. We expected that there would be some outcry, especially during this period between when the word got out and when you get to see the new setting. But we're still confident that this was the right decision, and pretty excited for you to see what we're doing.

Why? Because our goal from the start has been to create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide we could—the best setting for your game. It's a setting that new players can approach with wonder, enjoying what's there without worrying about what used to be. And it's a setting that you established fans can approach with a renewed sense of wonder, recognizing the Realms that you love so much in its newest incarnation. We think you folks will enjoy the story of the transitions, the fantastic events that have changed the face of the world—but not its heart.


So, it would seem they are changing a few things due to the internet outcry?

Thoughts?

Not it's heart? Right and I'm ready to buy a bridge in NY. You lot decided not to not only change all the rules, looks like dumming them down. You also decided to mess up the Realms and say it for the good of the game and the fans? Come on it's purly for profit all the FR books will be rewritten with your 4e story line and there you go instant profit.

I have decided not to buy any wotc/hasbro products from this point on. That includes novels or any other product. My players won't want new books, in fact they only would have gotten them if I had chosen to DM 4e. So you lose my custom and theirs.
 
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I have used my 1st edition FR setting along with 2nd and 3rd editionmaterial in my 3.0/3.5 gaming. I fail to see why those that move to 4th ed will be forced to buy new setting material. Campaign setting are mostly fluff anyway... I always tend to ignore most of the crunch wedged into campaign settings and only use the bits that are really tasty... YMMV
 

Mkhaiwati said:
Just yet another misconception that FR fans actually want change and destruction on a monthly basis.
The book editors evidently identified a faction who do, who since the Avatar trilogy expect RSEs and aren't tickled by anything less. Of course, those books have a disproportionate effect for those who don't.

Henry said:
Ed has said before, basically, chop off everything outside of the sword coast, the heartlands, and the Dales, and you have most of it. There are people who don't realize how much stuff they like (e.g. the Moonshae isles, Doug Niles' baby!) were someone else's work.
Not quite. The only parts added by TSR to Faerûn itself are Bob Salvatore's Icewind Dale, Doug Niles's Moonshaes (replacing Ed's archipelago), and Vaasa and Damara (transplanted onto a glacier from the H modules). Bob created Menzoberranzan, Troy Denning introduced Bedine nomads into Anauroch, and Steven Schend added the small nation of Erlkazar.

But the regions Ed detailed heavily, to the tune of many millions of unpublished words, are the places his two long-running campaigns were and are set: Waterdeep and the Sword Coast North, where the Company of Crazed Venturers walked, and Cormyr and the Dales and to a lesser extent the other northern Inner Sea lands, where his Knights of Myth Drannor campaign takes place. The sparsely detailed outlying regions were given to freelancers to write up from Ed's partial notes: Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan to Scott Haring; Thay to Steve Perrin; Mulhorand, Unther and Chessenta to Scott Bennie (who turned up the Earth influences); the Great Glacier to Rick Swan (the dreadful FR14); Halruaa, Dambrath and Luiren to Tom Prusa. And Dale Henson's mauling of Netheril, which Lost Empires of Faerûn somewhat salvaged. Some of them did better jobs than others, but in the early years of the published Realms only Ed and Jeff Grubb deeply understood the setting until Steven Schend and Eric Boyd came along in the late 1990s.

delericho said:
The many years of FR canon is one of the major selling points of the setting. It is also simultaneously a great weakness, being a barrier for new players trying to come up to speed.
Quoting myself:
Almost everything written for RPGs is pedagogically primitive. There's little really good advice on how to GM, build worlds, craft scenarios; setting sourcebooks lay out information with little thought to structure and how newcomers will learn it. (There are partial historical and commercial reasons for this.)

Here, Wizards is seemingly just giving up.
That is, in cutting down society, characters, pantheons, magic, etc. to make a simpler, more approachable setting.
Stone Dog said:
Out of curiousity, weren't there published adventures in the early days that were basically the PCs following around heroes and watching them be cool? I think I recall a trilogy of those about the king of the dales or something like that. No hostility, I'm genuinly curious.
The FRE Avatar modules could be described that way: they're absurd follies in that sense, though Ed made the best he could of the assignment and they have terrific Realmslore and encounters in them. Jim Butler wrote a trio of modules set in the Dales, but they aren't about following anyone around.
MerricB said:
I think the big difference is that those areas have been developed through a lot of play in, first, Ed's campaigns, and then, later, by other designers who have run campaigns there.
Absolutely. It's no coincidence that the two richest and most long-lasting D&D worlds emerged organically from game play, rather than being conceived top-down by a committee of staff designers.
 
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WoTC has helped me with my gaming budget with the changes in the 4th Ed FR. That one less setting I will following in 4th Ed now. I always had problems with FR novels being canon and this brings it to a head. With a sad heart I walk away from a good friend but look forward to what is ahead.
 

Kae'Yoss said:
Maybe, but it seems as if what we're saying doesn't matter to them a bit.

What we get is a set of platitudes about how great those big changes are and how the heart of the Realms isn't changed.

They don't give us anything to show us that the changes can be good. All the changes we know about are pretty bad, it seems like they're either deliberately withholding the good ones or that there are no good changes.

No, I don't think I'll bother with the Realms any more. The sky isn't falling - it has fallen.


I feel just the opposite. This all sounds great to me. A reboot to the FR is something
needed especially because 4e isn't just a rules update, it's an overhaul from top to bottom.
It means they want to make the FR more integral to the ruleset and that's fine by me.
 

I feel just the opposite. This all sounds great to me. A reboot to the FR is something
needed especially because 4e isn't just a rules update, it's an overhaul from top to bottom.
It means they want to make the FR more integral to the ruleset and that's fine by me.
Agreed. So long as it retains its vibe, the soap opera of the gods doesn't matter to me a jot. Receives far too much attention as it is - a casual observer of REALMS-L would think they're the most important part of the setting for all the discussion they generate. Who cares what Mystra had for lunch, or whether she lives or dies - dead gods leave eldritch ruins and secrets, and are therefore far more interesting than living ones in D&D terms.
 


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