January Rules updates 2010

[avin]

Why must you assume he's unaware of it? In general, the game assumes everyone knows what's going on. Why assume it's sneaky in this case?

"The game assumes" is different of how each DM assumes how the fluff works.

I tend to imagine that the teleported orc has no clue where he's going on. But let's assume he is aware: the orc has 5hp, what's he would get a save for being teleported to hindering terraing and not getting the save for being teleported in the middle of 7 hostile dragons that want to kill him?

 

[Zaran]

Of course, the rule isn't there really for that little orc. It's the solo monster that the wizard can basically Finger of Death. So instead of a free solo encounter with one lucky roll to hit. You have to have two lucky rolls. There is still a chance that the solo will roll a 4 or less and the GM can cheat behind the screen with a roll noone can see. =P

My group and I'm sure alot others just assumed it was like forced movement and had already been using the save or die rule for this.

I actually like this mechanic. I remember playing Keep of the Shadowfell and the cleric made the big bad guy jump in the gate to the Shadowfell with a Command spell. They rolled a 1 on their save. Was probably good because that battle was going wrong for the good guys. In my opinion, with all the advantages the bad guy had that encounter was not balanced very well.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Hindering terrain is not that dangerous...

DMG p61
Examples: Pits, deep water, lava, fire.

Hindering terrain is, by definition, dangerous.

Not as dangerous, I concede, as an evard's black tentacles, but hey ...

 

[Tale]

"The game assumes" is different of how each DM assumes how the fluff works.

I tend to imagine that the teleported orc has no clue where he's going on. But let's assume he is aware: the orc has 5hp, what's he would get a save for being teleported to hindering terraing and not getting the save for being teleported in the middle of 7 hostile dragons that want to kill him?

Maybe the Orc has a childhood phobia of point rocks, but not of dragons.

Be imaginative.

 

[avin]

How is this any different from forced movement?

A wizard decides to slide an orc.
Orc gets slid towards the edge of a cliff, and gets a save.
Orc gets slid inbetween a rogue and a fighter, in a square that's got some cloud of daggers in it, and just goes.

On a slide, I think, he's being moved by magic force and can see where he's going during the movement. Teleport, as far as I know, don't work like that.

A saving throw isn't an action. The Orc doesn't need to be aware of anything. There is no roleplaying that needs to be done it's all background mechanics.

I try to push roleplaying in every rule when I'm DMing. Sometimes is hard, like in Healing Surges, that's why I would rather rules have some fluff backup most of time.

I understand this is D&D, HP is an abstraction, level is metagamist, etc... but this is how I play and get fun of it

If you really need an explanation, maybe teleportation magic requires a safe "landing" and if there isn't one the magic weakens allowing for it to be resisted.

Not a bad idea. I would just say the "save" is on Wizard's hands and the magic won't be resisted by the orc, just fails.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Also, remember people: it's a saving throw.
You can cause an auto-fail with an Orb of Karmic Resonance.

Which means this update has effectively given the green light to teleport-dropping enemies from a great height.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

He's not bitch-slapping the universe with Magic. All Magic works within the rules of D&D universe just like airplane wings seem to subvert our reality when a plane flights.

If you're going to go the route of "it's a fundamental part of D&D's universe!" then why can't it be a fundamental part of the D&D universe that teleportation magic is inherently difficult. You're bending space and time here!

Now, while it's easy to do when someone is willing (see: teleportation circle, powers that teleport allies, misty step, etc...) it's much harder to do when they're unwilling. And what's really hard is to teleport them into unsafe locations! The magics involved were originally used to safely travel long distances, but now they're being perverted to do unnatural things and be lethal.

The save mechanic merely represents the Wizard/Warlock/Whatever class trying to fight against these laws of teleportation to do something outside of the normal power range. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Oh, and as for you plane analogy, fine. Ever fly a plane backwards? Wings don't really work well that way. As part of their fundamental physics they allow flight, but only in a certain and very exact way. Try and do something else with them though, and you'll have a LOT of difficulty and it may prove to be impossible!

With magic of course, many things are possible and you can bend natural forces to your will much easier than making a plane fly backwards. However, that doesn't mean it's guaranteed to work every time.

 

[avin]

Maybe the Orc has a childhood phobia of point rocks, but not of dragons.

Be imaginative.

So all creatures in the world would have childhood phobia? Or should I find explanations for every teleport just because designers fixed a crunch problem with no concern with fluff?

If some people just accept that way and get fun, all power to them! I just like to have some explanation how things work on my game not "magic explains".

I'm not trolling here. Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate that.

 

[avin]

The magics involved were originally used to safely travel long distances, but now they're being perverted to do unnatural things and be lethal.

This is what I'm talking about: fluff in love with crunch. Thanks for this idea.

Dungeon should bring monthly articles with stuff like that: "where rules meet roleplaying".

 

[Tale]

So all creatures in the world would have childhood phobia? Or should I find explanations for every teleport just because designers fixed a crunch problem with no concern with fluff?

I'd be more concerned with whoever it is asking you for fluff for the personal objections of every enemy teleported. You've got some weirdos in the group.

If some people just accept that way and get fun, all power to them! I just like to have some explanation how things work on my game not "magic explains".

You're going to have a very hard time if everything needs an explanation. I'd imagine you'd get stuck on explaining the distance of diagonals and never get much further.


Fluff is available if you need it and have an imagination. Especially in this instance. Most fluff will break down, however, if you're going to be obsessive over it and demand it work for every case and corner case possible.