January Rules updates 2010

[Rechan]

If you insist on injecting RP into every rules decision, and you have trouble reconciling some rules, that's your problem not the system's.

The rule is that a target understands the parameters of any effect they are being hit with. A monster under the effects of a Divine Challenge understands that if it doesn't hit the Paladin, it's going to hurt.

So, since everything knows What's Going to Happen when it's under an effect, then you can reconcile "The Orc doesn't know where he's going" by saying "Actually yes he does - he knows he's being teleported and where."

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

This ruling of teleporting creatures 50 feet into the sky is a bit irksome for me, saving throw or not. I'll just remind my players, anything they can do, monsters can do. Hopefully the potential of their character being teleported 50 feet above a 20 foot pit trap full of spikes and a swarm of poisonous snakes, will be sufficient for them not to abuse this ruling.

Of course, someone in the party will almost always have a ring of Featherfall.

 

[yesnomu]

The dominate rule was a good clarification.

The teleport rules are going to be a problem I think. Allowing them to do vertical movement makes them some of the most damaging powers in the game.

If teleport was rare and high level it would be one thing, but its commonplace, and getting moreso with each new book.

The fact that there's a better than even chance for potentially damaging teleportation to be resisted is a pretty good deterrent, though. That right there makes the odds of the power going off completely ~25%--not great.

And while the plural of anecdote isn't data, our group has played with offensive teledropping (with no save) on both sides of the table--it's potent, but not (so far) overpowered. That might have been because an avenger was the main PC user, I suppose.

 

[Alex319]

Now, having a save just because crunch demands, depending of a condition the orc is not aware of seem a bit weird for me.

Well, in real life, we "save" versus "conditions" we're not aware of all the time: our bodies have lots of systems that protect us from hazards (immune system, temperature regulation etc.) that operate without any conscious input or even knowledge.

A saving throw isn't an action. The Orc doesn't need to be aware of anything. There is no roleplaying that needs to be done it's all background mechanics. The only thing that the creature casting the teleport needs to know is that it fail.

Well, actually, this doesn't always work. Remember that the Orc has a choice of whether or not to attempt the saving throw or just allow himself to be teleported. So there has to be something that tells the Orc "Okay, you have a chance to make a saving throw now, do you want to?" Also if the Orc or his allies have any interrupt powers that provide a bonus to the saving throw, then there has to be something that tells them "you have a chance to use the interrupt now, do you want to?"

 

[Alex319]

By the way, I came up with the following "fluff explanation" for why teleport works the way it does. See how you like it:

----

Teleportation magic is inherently difficult. In order for it to work reliably, it requires a stable "magical energy field" at the end point of the teleport in order to "lock on" to. If such an energy field does not exist, it is necessary for the teleport magic to create one temporarily, but this makes the teleport take slightly longer (on the order of a second or two) which gives the defender another chance to resist it or use powers that will help them resist it (i.e. the saving throw, possibly modified with extra powers.)

The required energy field is produced by particles called "magitrons." Magitrons are continuously generated by any solid material. Unlike ordinary matter, magitrons are repelled by gravity rather than attracted, so they tend to fly upward. Additionally, magitrons have a very short half-life, so most of them only fly up a few feet before decaying. Thus, there is a magitron "field" that hovers over solid surfaces. This explains why you need a solid surface to teleport to.

Additionally, the rate of magitron production is temperature-dependent. It peaks out around 80 degrees Fahrenheit and goes down as the temperature diverges from that point, so surfaces below around 20 degrees (like very cold ice) or above around 140 degrees (like fire and lava) produce few if any magitrons - thus they have no magitron field above them and teleporting onto them is just like teleporting into air, as described above (i.e. hindering terrain). Similar effects occur for other types of hindering terrain hazards not based on temperature. For example, if there is a square that is hazardous because it has a rotating blade in the floor, the rapidly rotating blade creates "turbulence" in the magitron field, making it hard to get a good lock.

There is also one more fact to explain: why hindering terrain causes problems for teleportation, but temporary magical effects like walls of fire and cloud of daggers (that have similar effects to hindering terrain) do not. This theory can account for that explanation. To avoid unwanted interactions with other terrain or magical effects, sustained effect spells are designed to monitor their own influence on the magitron field and counteract it using the spells' own magical energy. Thus even a spell like Wall of Fire, despite increasing the local temperature, will leave the magitron field intact and thus not affect teleportation.

 

[ravenheart]

This is technically going into house ruling territory, but what about applying a +2 bonus to the save for each/every other square of forced vertical teleportation? Or alternatively, making each square of forced vertical teleportation cost double (a bit like difficult terrain for forced teleportation)?

Fluff-wise, it could be difficulties in teleporting in relation to gravity or wind-resistance, or just teleporting something into the air (where targeting could be seen as more subjective). Making it refer to forced teleportation only allows the caster control while teleporting him or herself, but puts teleporting allies in a bit of a grey-zone.

Also, if you want a more risky option, why not say that if the target succeeds on its saving throw, YOU are instead teleported to the place where you wanted to teleport the target (maybe you could get a saving throw to avoid this)?

 

[avin]

I'd be more concerned with whoever it is asking you for fluff for the personal objections of every enemy teleported. You've got some weirdos in the group.

Thanks for insulting my friends.

You're going to have a very hard time if everything needs an explanation. I'd imagine you'd get stuck on explaining the distance of diagonals and never get much further.

I've already mentioned I'm aware this is D&D, with its HP abstraction etc. And who said we didn't houseruled diagonals as many others DMs?

Fluff is available if you need it and have an imagination. Especially in this instance. Most fluff will break down, however, if you're going to be obsessive over it and demand it work for every case and corner case possible.

So, am I that don't have an imagination or it's you that just don't care about fluff as long crunch works?

Explaining crunch is Wizards of the Coast job, not mine. If you can live with only crunch, perfect for you, but I don't play wargames, I play roleplaying games.

This is not the point of this topic and I'm leaving this argument with you. Don't bother.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Well, actually, this doesn't always work. Remember that the Orc has a choice of whether or not to attempt the saving throw or just allow himself to be teleported. So there has to be something that tells the Orc "Okay, you have a chance to make a saving throw now, do you want to?" Also if the Orc or his allies have any interrupt powers that provide a bonus to the saving throw, then there has to be something that tells them "you have a chance to use the interrupt now, do you want to?"

All that stuff you just wrote is all player and DM knowledge. As far as the Orc and his allies are concerned the don't have "powers" they are just trying to kill stuff. Everything you mentioned is all stuff players need to know because PnPrpg combat doesn't work without rules like that. So it's not the Orcs choice it's the players/DMs choice. Don't confuse combat mechanics with roleplay.

 

[Tale]

So, am I that don't have an imagination or it's you that just don't care about fluff as long crunch works?

I'm the one, of us two, that's actually come up with fluff. I'd say I care more about fluff than you do. Fluff is easy for those who actually care for it.

 

[Nifft]

Fluff is easy for those who actually care for it.

This is true for me, too.

Crunch demands math and play testing.
One doesn't really need to playtest fluff.

Cheers, -- N