January Rules updates 2010

[Nikosandros]

I believe that the main issue isn't about horizontal teleportation over dangerous terrain, but rather vertical movement. Even on a flat, featureless plain, you get a good damage potential since you teleport a target as many squares high as your power has range (while still moving him the full horizontal distance).

 

[eamon]

In response to "Fluff is easy for those who actually care for it.", Nifft said...

This is true for me, too.

Crunch demands math and play testing.
One doesn't really need to playtest fluff.

I find this to be untrue. Fluff, even more-so than crunch, needs to make sense. Not just now - that explanation you just gave will be expected to make sense in another context and given a new twist you didn't predict.

Making fluff that's actually fun and immersive isn't at all trivial, and it's not orthogonal to the rules. Some rules can easily be fluffed; indeed, it's obvious some rules were written with particular fluff interpretations in mind.

The rules update is decent for balance, but it's a disaster for fluff, just as the rules concerning saves against forced movement are. It doesn't make it unplayable - it just means there's a gentlemans agreement not to harp on the obvious inconsistencies to everyone's detriment. But that doesn't make the inconsistencies any less obvious or any less annoying.

If you can really try and "push back" vs. forced movement or teleports - and sometimes avoid being placed in a fire, say, why can't you avoid being pushed towards the ogre in corner that's grinning madly and just barely holding an anvil aloft, ready to drop and crush whatever passes by?

It's obvious these rules are an attempt to make pushes and 'ports into nasty places less overpowering, but their definition of what a "nasty place" is makes no sense whatsoever, and no amount of refluffing - certainly not off-the-cuff best-guess "easy" fluff, as is being suggested here.

Consistent, believable and dramatic fluff is not easy, and the rules do affect the ease with which you can come up with something and the complexity of the resulting fluff.

To be clear:I'm happy they released the update - the game's clearly better for it. This particular issue is just one of 4e's wart's, and I can't see a resolution without fairly radical overhaul. Every system has it's issues, and this is a livable one - but you can hardly claim with a straight face that it's easily fixed by some refluffing. Don't bother fluffing it at all, I say - down that path the midi-chlorians lie, my young padawan... blech!

 

[keterys]

However also by the rules, if you're about to get shoved into a wall of fire

Stick with pits or lava (ie hindering terrain), instead of wall of fire, cloud of daggers, or other powers, unless you want to touch off a side argument.

I would rather the rules let you fall prone to stop any forced movement.

Meh, it's better for "realism", but it'd be awful in a bunch of situations where being prone was an advantage over being pushed into flank, auras, nearer to allies, what have you. Especially with how minor prone is for some characters (it's not hard to have a character both stand up from prone as a minor action and have uncanny dodge), against already prone characters (may as well save against everything, then), and on powers that both move and prone.

Maybe if you could do it sometimes, but not always, but you could always do it for the more game breaking options.

Though personally I'd just as soon more terrain, zones, and auras (including powers like armor of agathys, flaming sphere, rain of steel, etc) were based on ending your turn in them rather than entering or starting, only applied once per turn no matter what, and teleportation was strictly only onto a safe location.

 

[Jhaelen]

Indeed. The errata is nice (and was needed), but allowing vertical movement is still too much. I'll probably keep my house rule: vertical movement only for willing targets.

Ditto.
To be honest, anything involving 3d combat in 4e isn't really well thought out. I hope they'll address this in DMG3, since epic tier gameplay really requires good rules on aerial movement etc.

 

[fuzzlewump]

If you can really try and "push back" vs. forced movement or teleports - and sometimes avoid being placed in a fire, say, why can't you avoid being pushed towards the ogre in corner that's grinning madly and just barely holding an anvil aloft, ready to drop and crush whatever passes by?

I think the idea is that there is a chance for redemption. Being pushed off a ledge gives you a save to well, save yourself. The ogre will make an attack roll when it drops the anvil, which will function in the same way. Give you a chance to avoid it. Sometimes your chances double up, like if they had to hit you with an attack to push you and then you get to save, but I think they were shooting for having at least 1 chance to save yourself from a possible harm most of the time.

Does teleporting granting a save make sense? I think so, wouldn't be the first time magic follows special rules to prevent unbalancing problems, like casting create water in someone's brain. Or enlarge person to crush someone.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I can't say I'm happy vertical teleport is a-ok now. Perhaps this will be my first houserule.

 

[Lord Ernie]

Eh. I don't see the issue with dangerous terrain or vertical teleports, honestly.

If I put dangerous terrain (clifffaces, pits, lava, whatever) into my encounter, it's because it's supposed to be there. If anything, I cheer the idea of teleporting/shoving people into it.

Teleporting vertically could be nasty with the right build, I guess, but most of the time you're giving up an element of control (teleport) to have a 45% chance to do extra damage and knock them prone. Unless I'm missing some powers which generate Harrowstorm-like distances, I don't think it's that big a deal (and before someone points out saving throw penalties: that's a whole issue onto itself).

EDIT: A quick compendium search gives me these results for "teleport the target" that are not restricted (and thus allow vertical teleports):

Dimensional Vortex, Swordmage, Level 3 Encounter. 5 squares.
Be Gone, Swordmage, Level 9 Daily. 5 squares.
Wormhole Plunge, Ardent, Level 1 Daily. Wisdom mod squares.
HammerFall Step, Arcane Wayfarer, Level 11 Encounter. 3 squares.
Forcing the Portal, Blade of Cendriane, Level 11 Encounter. 2 squares.
Will of the Feywild, Feytouched, Level 11 Encounter. 5 squares.
Argent Arrow, High Forest Scout, Level 11 Encounter. 1 square.
Probability Travel, Storvakal, Level 11 Encounter, 1+wis mod.
Sequestering Word, Avenger, Level 13 Encounter, 5 squares.
Astral Fury, Avenger, Level 17 Encounter, 3 squares.
Sprite Dance, Seeker, Level 17 Encounter, 5 squares.
Planar Shock, Swordmage, Level 19 Encounter, 10 squares.
Celestial Seal, Celestial Scholar, Level 20 Daily. 3 squares.
Excoriating Challenge, Avenger, Level 23 Encounter, 5 squares.
Fetters of Darkness, Invoker, Level 23 Encounter, 5/10 squares.
Wildrift Burst, Sorcerer, Level 23 Encounter, Dex Mod + 1d4 squares.
Shuffling Thunder, Sorcerer, Level 23 Encounter, up to 10 squares (d10 if Wild mage)
Western Wind of Storms, Shaman, Level 25 Daily, 10 squares.
Shifting Wave, Spellscarred, Level 27 encounter, 4 squares.
Enthropic Whirlwind, Sorcerer, Level 29 Daily, Dex mod squares, and up to 5 squares UEOE.
Prismatic Wall, Wizard, Level 29 Daily, 5 squares.

While a few of those are problematic, it seems tough to really make a 'teleport' build to abuse this.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I ahve little trouble with teleporting into obstacles like lava or such as ther are lots of ways to end up there and the party can kind of expect that to be a problem

But teleporting in the air is just plain cheesy.

It does not happen in my games. We just play by more common-sense and game-balanced ways than obeying the letter of the rules.

 

[Nikosandros]

Teleporting vertically could be nasty with the right build, I guess, but most of the time you're giving up an element of control (teleport) to have a 45% chance to do extra damage and knock them prone.

You don't give up any control, actually. Due to 4e topology, if a teleportation power has a range of 10 squares, you can put the target 10 squares away and 10 squares high.

 

[Nichwee]

But if you try to include the 10 squares up they can save. If they do you lose the 10 up and the 10 across = loss of control.
Sp you have assured control (teleport safely) vs 45% chance of control + damage (about 2d10 as teleports seem to average out at 5 squares = 2 lots of 10ft and some spare that is rounded down).