Jetison the power system and use page 42 only

[Engilbrand]

What do the players think of this?
I agree with some of the other posters. This seems needlessly complex.

 

[Sadrik]

This seems needlessly complex.

Do you think this system works?
Do you think the amount of damage that any of the powers do is appropriate?
Do you think the condition power should be broken up into different powers?
I would really like to look at the PP costs, thoughts on that?

This type of overhaul of the game is taking 1,000s of powers and condensing them into just 11 powers. It can be a little jarring if you are very attached to the 15 levels of attack powers as written. I understand this is simply an option that some may find interesting and use.





This is a finite list of only 11 powers but you can make an infinite number of variations from this simple list of attack powers. I would encourage player creativity in defining their attack powers.

Exploits can be defined on the fly, so that a fighter or rogue can simply gain bonus damage and define their specific exploit at the time they do it.

Spells and Prayers these are more specific and the player will need to define their power when created. So that a fireball is a fireball and not a coldball or whatever and the damage is ongoing or not and which defense it attacks. It would be nice to develop some spell and prayer creation guidelines in this area (fire is Ref and ongoing usually, cold is Fort and ongoing usually etc.).

Add the following powers to the basic actions list and you have a game that is very verbose and adaptable and not nearly as tactically stunning in both senses of the word stun.

Perhaps add back in some more basic maneuvers (disarm, trip etc) from previous editions and the game is all of a sudden highly mutable and enjoyable for me.

 

[Sadrik]

Give me a power from PHB I to convert. I'll give it my best shot.

 

[Alex319]

Give me a power from PHB I to convert. I'll give it my best shot.

How about:

Lead the Attack (Warlord Attack 1 - Encounter)
Healing Strike (Cleric Attack 1 - Encounter)
Flaming Sphere (Wizard Attack 1 - Daily)

(I chose these because they have multiple effects and I want to see how the system let you combine effects.)

---

Also I am a little confused about how the existing system works. Suppose I want to create a Burst power at level 1.

Burst
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 10
Target: Burst 2
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime or Medium Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)

Suppose I choose the first option. So the damage is 3d6+3 (low limited damage) plus prime stat, and this is in a burst 2 (which is a 5x5 square area). That's the equivalent of a 1st level encounter power!? Hell, it's almost as powerful as Fireball, which is a 5th level daily.

 

[Sadrik]

Lead the Attack (Warlord Attack 1 - Encounter)

Not sure what this attack is. It must be from a supplement I do not own.

Healing Strike (Cleric Attack 1 - Encounter)

This would be Power Strike dealing radiant damage.

Power Strike
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: As weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime + Proficiency vs. AC
Hit: Weapon + Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime (radiant damage)

The attack + buff powers really get neutered under this system. I'll assume the warlord power is an attack + buff too. Buffs are utility powers and don't bleed into the attack powers in this system. Remember the goal here is simplicity and not to duplicate the shear diversity of 1000's of powers. This is being presented as an option set next to the core 15 levels of attack powers not as a better option, just an option. A simple option.

Flaming Sphere (Wizard Attack 1 - Daily)

A little trickier but it could be represented by a summon power which should be added to the list or it could be represented by ongoing damage. Either way works and here is my idea for Summon:

Summon
1 PP burned
Standard Action
Range: Reach
Target: One Summoned Creature
Attack: Prime +2 vs. AC
Hit: Low Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Sustain: Minor: the summoned creature persists

Also I am a little confused about how the existing system works. Suppose I want to create a Burst power at level 1.

Suppose I choose the first option. So the damage is 3d6+3 (low limited damage) plus prime stat, and this is in a burst 2 (which is a 5x5 square area). That's the equivalent of a 1st level encounter power!? Hell, it's almost as powerful as Fireball, which is a 5th level daily.

Oops, it should have been burst 1. I'll go in and edit my posts. Thanks for the catch.

 

[Alex319]

Lead the Attack (Warlord Attack 1 - Encounter)
Not sure what this attack is. It must be from a supplement I do not own.

PHB1, page 146. (I made a mistake: it is a daily not an encounter).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hmmmm.

I have a few questions. What defines which of these powers any given class has available to it? In other words can my rogue sling around blasts, bursts, and walls? What really makes spell casters special and why do they uniquely have to define their powers up front whereas a fighter can do any old thing on the fly?

I'm still not really sold on the viability of the whole mechanism in actual play. I can imagine it being rather cumbersome. Every round the fighter goes through the list and makes up his mind what sort of attack to concoct from the various 'recipes' available. This isn't going to be quick. Furthermore I expect there will then be a phase of "negotiation" with the DM as the player justifies the proposed power use in terms of in-game actions and the DM may well end up vetoing some of these proposals. "I bash the dragon with my shield and knock it prone." "No you don't, the dragon is 80' long and weighs 12 tons, you can't realistically do that." "OK, back to the drawing board..." All of this with the player balancing which things he's going to do vs expenditure of PPs which is going to mean he's probably not going to do all of this without a decent amount of thought.

I also wonder about "theme" and how this plays into character development and the overall role of the character in the team. It seems like PCs become very interchangeable. I presume they have class features they will want to leverage but it still may be quite hard for a fighter to really feel distinct from a rogue who can do pretty much the same things even if in a very slightly different way.

 

[Sadrik]

I have a few questions. What defines which of these powers any given class has available to it? In other words can my rogue sling around blasts, bursts, and walls? What really makes spell casters special and why do they uniquely have to define their powers up front whereas a fighter can do any old thing on the fly?

This is the area that needs the help working out the kinks. Not sure but classes could simply begin with a certain number of these attack powers. Perhaps, they should be: Defender 2, Leader 3, Striker 3 and Controller 4. Each class would have a list of possible attacks to select from. So can rogues sling around lasts, bursts and walls? No, but multi-classing could allow more possibilities to be selected and feats could grant those new attacks.

Additionally, when I said exploits on the fly, I meant the special effects of the attack. So for instance, a "fireball" are special effects of a Burst power and they help define the Burst attack (vs. REF, fire damage, and no ongoing damage). I don't want the exploit users to have to choose "triple swing chop" special effect. They can name it if they want but it does not do anything and I won't require them to get three chops in to activate their power etc. It would just be a Power Strike and I would let them define (if they wanted to) "on the fly". So, what the actual special motions are when they perform their Power Strike are theirs to define during game play. This would be the opposite of the Spell and Prayer users. Note though if a fighter had the Condition power he would have to define which condition for instance "prone" with shield bash would be acceptable but I would not require the user to define how he is going to swing his shield though.

I'm still not really sold on the viability of the whole mechanism in actual play. I can imagine it being rather cumbersome. Every round the fighter goes through the list and makes up his mind what sort of attack to concoct from the various 'recipes' available. This isn't going to be quick.

Mongo looks down at his sheet and decides if he Power Strikes or he bashes someone prone with a Condition Prone power.

Furthermore I expect there will then be a phase of "negotiation" with the DM as the player justifies the proposed power use in terms of in-game actions and the DM may well end up vetoing some of these proposals. "I bash the dragon with my shield and knock it prone." "No you don't, the dragon is 80' long and weighs 12 tons, you can't realistically do that." "OK, back to the drawing board..." All of this with the player balancing which things he's going to do vs expenditure of PPs which is going to mean he's probably not going to do all of this without a decent amount of thought.

Well this is where I think some DM adjudication needs to happen. Can you shield bash 12 tons?

I also wonder about "theme" and how this plays into character development and the overall role of the character in the team. It seems like PCs become very interchangeable. I presume they have class features they will want to leverage but it still may be quite hard for a fighter to really feel distinct from a rogue who can do pretty much the same things even if in a very slightly different way.

True, the rogue gets sneak attack and the fighter gets combat challenge so that makes them pretty distinct. The rogue may have Split Strike and Condition Prone (trip) and the fighter may have Power Strike and Condition Prone (shield bash). The idea here is to let the players come up with their own uses of the powers and let them be as varied and diverse as they want to be.

 

[Wiseblood]

Since well over half of the published material consists of powers, I think it is safe to say that they are relatively integral to the 4e system. While it's possible to take page 42 and stretch it to cover everything powers normally do, it seems inefficient to do so when there are many alternative game systems out there that already have that sort of free form design of powers on the fly. If that's what you want you could play Mage or Unknown Armies or Earthdawn or something else. Actually, I think you would end up with a better, more elegant system if you simply took the principles expressed on page 42 and designed your own system around them.

One other thing to keep in mind. People like getting new powers and abilities. It's fun. What's the point of leveling up if all you get is a stat boost and the ability to use the same range of abilities more often? Your character isn't really changing, it's just becoming more powerful in a sort of generic sense. This is why all good games incorporate an advancement system that allows characters to acquire new abilities in addition getting better at the ones they already have.

All you get with a level is more math. Higher level powers are just a rehash of the lower level ones with more damage.

 

[Sadrik]

All you get with a level is more math. Higher level powers are just a rehash of the lower level ones with more damage.

What you say is essentially true with how the system works. However again, this is the area that needs working out.

To rehash the idea:
Depending on your party role you could begin with a different number of attack powers: Defender 2, Leader 3, Striker 3 and Controller 4.

As you advance you can select more attack powers, possibly 1 every 4 levels for a defender, 3 for striker and leaders and 2 for controllers. In this way the defender's added HP and combat abilities offset the controller's lesser.

The powers that each class would have available would have a list of possible ones to select from.

So the PHB1 classes could have access to:
Cleric: power strike, touch, wall, close burst, condition
Paladin: power strike, precise strike, touch, condition
Ranger: split strike, precise strike, shoot, condition
Fighter: power strike, split strike, condition
Rogue: precise strike, split strike, touch, condition
Warlord: power strike, split strike, precise strike, condition
Warlock: touch, shoot, blast, close burst, summon, condition
Wizard: touch, shoot, blast, burst, close burst, wall, summon, condition

Again, exploits would not have to be defined as triple spin overhand chops, that specific description could be defined during play (on the fly). But spells and prayers would have to be defined more especially if they do something more than normal damage. Example: a cleric or paladin might have a radiant strike which utilizes the power strike rules: they would have to define the damage as radiant.

The more I think about it the more I think the Condition power needs to change somehow. It could be broken up into 1 power per condition and then have a generic condition power that is for a unique condition. Have some of the conditions have a tier requirement. My only concern is that would add 18 powers bringing the total to 28 attack powers. Granted some of them would not get used much (surprised, deafened, dying)

The 18 conditions would be:
Blind
Daze
Deafen
Dominate
Make Dying
Make Helpless
Immobilize
Mark
Petrify
Make Prone
Restrain
Slow
Stun
Surprise
Make Unconscious
Weaken
Move (Pull, Push or Slide)
Condition (covers unique conditions)