JLU: Doomsday Sanction (Spoilers)

[Villano]

Any thoughts on this episode? I was never a fan of the original Justice League series. I thought that JLU was an improvement despite some bad episodes (like the Hawk & Dove one).

This episode, however, I didn't like. I really don't like the new, talking Doomsday. Granted, the comic version was no great thing, but the animated version is just..."eh". Honestly, the out of control Solomon Grundy was more impressive.

I was also confused by two things. First, how exactly can Luthor run for President? In the cartoon, he is a supervillain. He's been arrested, convicted, broken out of prison, and committed some public crimes. I don't know if it's a national law, but, in many states, convicted felons can't vote. If you aren't even eligble register to vote, how can you run for office?

I know that's what kept felon Lyndon Larouche off the Democratic Primary ballots this past election (well, that and the fact that Larouche is crazy. He once claimed that Queen Elizabeth was head of an international drug catel and that Ronald Reagan sent 100 armed men to his house one day to assassinate him). The "convicted felon" part was the legal reason given for prevented him from registering as a candidate.

In the comics, I think they got around things by never actually having Luthor proven to have done anything illegal.

Secondly, I didn't understand Doomsday's origin. Okay, according to Waller in her conversation with Batman, when Superman reported the story of the Justice Lords, the government put her in charge of coming up with a way to stop the League in case they went bad. I can't remember, but I think that she said that is why the Cadmus Project was created (I don't think Cadmus was ever mentioned during the Superman animated series, so I'm pretty sure that Cadmus never appeared prior to JLU).

Anyway, Doomsday was supposedly created by Cadmus and Waller and trained to hate Superman. Then Doomsday got loose and fought the Justice Lords' Superman.

However, wasn't that the first appearance of the Justice Lords? How could he have been created because of the Justice Lords before anyone knew they existed? Is this a gigantic conituity oops?

Okay, Prof. Milo might have been lying about Waller, but Doomsday was created by Cadmus. If the organization didn't exist prior to the Justice Lords, how did they make Doomsday?

I didn't tape the episode or anything, so I might have misheard things. Can anyone help with this?

 

[Crothian]

CAn I help? Nope, but I liked the episode. I have no idea what Doomsday was like in the comics and I've only been able to see few of the episodes. But I enjoy what I see.,

 

[takyris]

This episode, however, I didn't like. I really don't like the new, talking Doomsday. Granted, the comic version was no great thing, but the animated version is just..."eh". Honestly, the out of control Solomon Grundy was more impressive.

I liked it -- but then, I liked the old show, too. I think that this one really pays off if you've been watching the show for awhile. That's not to discount the personal likes and dislikes element, but that might well be a factor. I'm not sure if you've seen all of the current season, but if so, there could be stuff that didn't make sense.

I was also confused by two things. First, how exactly can Luthor run for President? In the cartoon, he is a supervillain.

In the second season, Luthor was pardoned after he used his absurd (but hilarious as a tongue-in-cheek nod to an old Super-friends episode that used the exact same premise) "Drain all powers from hero, even if their powers are magic, or innate as alien abilities, or if they come from a device" weapon to take out the Justice Lords (the alternate-dimension League, as mentioned in this ep). Luthor is, in Season Three, once again a respected businessman with a lot of power. I personally found that hard to believe (that is, I find it hard to believe that the world is ready to trust a guy who tramped through the city in laser-firing power armor), but it was nice to get Luthor back onto the table as a charismatic potential villain, and, well, the government must have some sort of Department of Overly Trusting Pardons that handles Luthor and Arvin Sloane's cases...

Secondly, I didn't understand Doomsday's origin. Okay, according to Waller in her conversation with Batman, when Superman reported the story of the Justice Lords, the government put her in charge of coming up with a way to stop the League in case they went bad. I can't remember, but I think that she said that is why the Cadmus Project was created (I don't think Cadmus was ever mentioned during the Superman animated series, so I'm pretty sure that Cadmus never appeared prior to JLU).

Two options here.

1) We misunderstood something, and things actually started earlier for the Doomsday project. In point of fact, we know this to be true, because the Superman episode "Legacy" aired before Justice League started. In this episode, Superman, under the mind control of Darkseid, attacks Earth. He eventually breaks the control, remembers who he is, and throws down hard on Darkseid (and does so again in a very good episode from last season involving Supes, Darkseid, and Brainiac, with Batman shining a spotlight on Superman's pain and shame from having been mind-frelled), but not before being zapped and captured by the military -- who are prepared to kill him. It was established in this season's episode with Supergirl and the Question that the folks at Starlabs grabbed some tissue from Supergirl during this fight, realizing the scariness of a world where Superman was not the good guy. Since they had Superman unconscious in that episode, too, it makes sense that they'd have done a tissue scrape as well to make their own "Controllable Superman". That's likely where Doomsday came from, and it would just be a writing error (or our misunderstanding) that makes it sound like Doomsday didn't happen until after the Justice Lords episode. The actual timetable would be something like "Superman gets mind-frelled by Darkseid, scientists grab tissue sample and begin black-ops project, Justice Lords show up, government formalizes the project or combines multiple independent projects together under the Project Cadmus label".

1.5) In the show, Bizarro is actually a degraded clone of Superman -- he dates back to the Superman show as well, even earlier. He was made by Luthor, who is apparently funding Cadmus, so it's possible that after Legacy (Supes gets mind-frelled and goes bad), Luthor made Doomsday and worked with the government to anti-Superman-program him -- and then they gave up, thinking "Man, we'll just use Supergirl instead. She looks better in a halter top," shot him into space, and set into motion the events in Justice Lords. So again, the Doomsday project existed before Cadmus, as an independent project.

2) The guy telling Doomsday this story was lying. Doomsday was actually an alien, and the government has just been anti-Superman programming him since he got lobotomized. It's in the government's interest to have this guy on a leash -- he's the only guy they can get their hands on who went ten rounds with Superman and kept going. Him being partially lobotomized just makes him more tractable.

For the record, I really liked this episode -- loved getting to see Superman actually fight back, loved the tone of Superman telling Wonder Woman to keep working with the refugees instead of helping him ("This is less important..."), and loved the whole scene at the end with Bruce and Superman. I could see Bruce's point of view -- I don't see what else could have been done with Doomsday, but it nevertheless showed that Superman, while unwilling to kill, feels himself justified in passing judgment in certain situations. And that feeling of justification could grow. And Kevin Conroy's delivery of "You don't get to joke! Not today! I took a bullet for you!" was spot-on.

But mileage may vary -- this felt a lot like a set-up episode.

 

[Villano]

Thanks, Takyris. I totally forgot about the "rogue Superman" thing. I've actually only seen that episode once as a rerun on Cartoon Network. I don't get WB, so I missed it the first time.

That's a good theory about Doomsday predating Cadmus. I'm still hoping that he'll be revealed to be an alien. Actually, since he's in the Phantom Zone, if he is Krytonian like the comic version, that would certainly be a way to discover it.

The "Luthor for President" thing is still stupid. Wasn't he piloting the giant, city destroying robot in the first part of Legends (when they end up in the JSA-like alternate dimension)? You have to be a total putz to lose an election to this guy! "My opponent tried to kill you all! Don't any of you idiots remember that?! Does 'Giant Death Robot' ring any bells?!"

Maybe he'll run a campaign like Sideshow Bob in that episode where he runs for Mayor:

"The current administration supports revolving door prisons. The President even released Lex Luthor, a notorious supervillian convicted of multiple crimes. Wiped his record completely clean. Can you trust a man like The President? Vote Lex Luthor."

 

[The Serge]

Any thoughts on this episode? I was never a fan of the original Justice League series. I thought that JLU was an improvement despite some bad episodes (like the Hawk & Dove one).

Hmmm... I liked most of Justice League, particularly season three (the last season).

This episode, however, I didn't like. I really don't like the new, talking Doomsday. Granted, the comic version was no great thing, but the animated version is just..."eh". Honestly, the out of control Solomon Grundy was more impressive.

I loved this episode. I love the fact that:
1. It continues with a story line that they've been building since the new show started some time ago (technically, since the original series).
2. It's a great conspiracy episode that fills in some gaps, but leaves the viewer hoping for more.
3. The personalities are fantastic. The different reactions and the manner in which different characters respond are really fun.

I really think that we may end up seeing Batman doing his protocols (like he did in the comic series a few years back that backfired in Tower of Babel).

I was also confused by two things. First, how exactly can Luthor run for President? In the cartoon, he is a supervillain. He's been arrested, convicted, broken out of prison, and committed some public crimes. I don't know if it's a national law, but, in many states, convicted felons can't vote. If you aren't even eligble register to vote, how can you run for office?

The same way he ran (and won) the presidency in the comics. In the comics, he became a public "supervillain" as well. In the series, he was completely vindicated and pardoned for his crimes. Marion Barry went to prison, got out, and won reelection as mayor of DC in real life. Depending on the fictional platform Luthor runs on, he could use fear of the JL and other paranormal threats to win an election. Afterall, he's all human and powerful, the kind of person many people would cling to in fear of aliens, living clay, and metahumans.

Secondly, I didn't understand Doomsday's origin. Okay, according to Waller in her conversation with Batman, when Superman reported the story of the Justice Lords, the government put her in charge of coming up with a way to stop the League in case they went bad. I can't remember, but I think that she said that is why the Cadmus Project was created (I don't think Cadmus was ever mentioned during the Superman animated series, so I'm pretty sure that Cadmus never appeared prior to JLU).

No, I don't believe Cadmus was mentioned during the Superman series, although there were already concern about Superman going rogue even back then.

However, wasn't that the first appearance of the Justice Lords? How could he have been created because of the Justice Lords before anyone knew they existed? Is this a gigantic conituity oops?

Could be a continuity oops, but remember that there were already seeds for this sort of thing since the original Superman series. There were already government concerns about Superman and his power. Heck, the military was already super ticked off with Superman when he advocated the disarming of nuclear stockpiles which allowed those extra-terrestrials to take control of the planet in "Secret Origins."

Okay, Prof. Milo might have been lying about Waller, but Doomsday was created by Cadmus. If the organization didn't exist prior to the Justice Lords, how did they make Doomsday?

Well, the funny thing about Doomsday is that he appeared on the planet from a fallen "meteor." While it's possible that Cadmus launched the thing, allowed it to orbit, and then return to earth, that sounds like a bit much. Wouldn't put it past them, though.

 

[reveal]

Here's my take on the whole thing:

1) It's a cartoon.
2) I like watching it.
3) I play a game where dragons exist and wizards can shoot fireballs out of their butts and don't complain (much) when things don't make sense.

So I don't take the whole thing too seriously.

 

[The Serge]

The "Luthor for President" thing is still stupid. Wasn't he piloting the giant, city destroying robot in the first part of Legends (when they end up in the JSA-like alternate dimension)? You have to be a total putz to lose an election to this guy! "My opponent tried to kill you all! Don't any of you idiots remember that?! Does 'Giant Death Robot' ring any bells?!"

He was piloting it... From a distance (he was on a yacht and manipulating the robot via remote control).

 

[devilish]

For the record, I really liked this episode -- loved getting to see Superman actually fight back, loved the tone of Superman telling Wonder Woman to keep working with the refugees instead of helping him ("This is less important..."), and loved the whole scene at the end with Bruce and Superman. I could see Bruce's point of view -- I don't see what else could have been done with Doomsday, but it nevertheless showed that Superman, while unwilling to kill, feels himself justified in passing judgment in certain situations. And that feeling of justification could grow. And Kevin Conroy's delivery of "You don't get to joke! Not today! I took a bullet for you!" was spot-on.

Double vote on that --- Even though Batman jettisoned long before the explosion,
I like the fact they showed him banged up badly (neck brace, and all) and
*angry* as well -- in the old series, Bruce Wayne always had on a pleasant
face and then went angry with the cowl on, but here, with his p-o'ed face on,
I didn't recognize him until Supes and WW came in.

Seeing Superman fighting for his life -- very nice. And the fact that Doomsday wasn't
killed by the lava submersion, only imprisoned.

The Luthor candidacy was pure MacGuffin for me, not important (for now) but
just something to keep the plot moving : didn't detract from the episode.

And also liked the Batman sending the Question to investigate, with everyone
at the table going "WTF?!"

 

[Mark Chance]

I was also confused by two things. First, how exactly can Luthor run for President? In the cartoon, he is a supervillain. He's been arrested, convicted, broken out of prison, and committed some public crimes. I don't know if it's a national law, but, in many states, convicted felons can't vote. If you aren't even eligble register to vote, how can you run for office?

The qualifications necessary to run for the Presidency of the United States are as follows: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

 

[Klaus]

Plus Lex could do what he did in the comics: blame it on his evil clone!


Quick recap: At first Luthor was an overweight bald man. He started using a kryptonite ring to keep Superman at bay. The K-radiation cost him his hand (had to use a robotic replacement). Afterwards, Lex found out that the K-radiation gave him cancer, and he was doomed to die. Lex faked his own death in plane crash and had his scientists tranfer his preserved brain to a newly clone body: younger, healthier, stronger and hairier (no lie!). The Lex-clone presented himself as Lex Luthor II, and posed as a benefactor, inheriting Lexcorp and even dating Supergirl (!!!). During the "Fall of Metropolis" storyline, Luthor II went mad (his body was decaying, like the bizarre Superman-clone had decayed before) and went trigger happy with missiles over Metropolis and Superman. He was put on trial. But Lex struck a deal with DC's Mephisto-like demon Neron (during "Underworld Unleashed") and sold his soul in return for a healthy new body (albeit bald). He convinced the world that he was Luthor I and that Luthor II was an evil clone, and got back Lexcorp and a clean record.

Afterwards, he went on to become President, with Pete Ross as VP. Recently, things went downhill for good ol' Lexy.